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  #41  
Old 06-08-2012, 04:30 PM
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JimLewis JimLewis is offline
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Yah, you see a little different hue. That's because of binning. Just because one is the same color temperature as the next, doesn't mean you get the exact same look. A better understanding of binning will help you understand why this happens. I wish I had a good reference on the internet that explained this issue of binning better. Perhaps someone here can point you in the right direction.

Using filters, like amber filters, can get you pretty close to what you are looking for, if you're wanting to get the hue to be a little warmer, like halogen.

But I don't see a huge difference. I like the look of the Brilliance drop in LED and also the Kichler LED fixtures as well. Here are two photos from an LED job we did yesterday (Kichler). I thought the color turned out great.

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  #42  
Old 06-08-2012, 05:04 PM
Richie@ Richie@ is offline
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This has been an Interesting thread thus far so lets keep it going.
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  #43  
Old 06-08-2012, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie@ View Post
I didn't say that I did make LED pop with Filters but was just wondering if anyone did use Lenses or Filters.

Take 2 bullets 1 with 2700k LED and 1 with 2700k MR 16 20 watt , aim them at Identical objects - Plants - Tree - Roses and tell me what you see.
If the LED was measurably 2700K and the halogen was measurably 2700K, they would look the same.
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  #44  
Old 06-08-2012, 06:18 PM
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JimLewis JimLewis is offline
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Well, I'm not sure what you mean by "measurably". But it's not true that just because two light sources share the same color TEMPERATURE that they will necessarily be the same hue. See chart below. If you follow, say, the 2700K line from top to bottom you could end up with a hue that was more toward the yellow/orange end of the spectrum up near the top (8B, 8C area) or you could end up with a hue that was more toward the pink/orange end of the spectrum. Both same color temperature - but different look. The 3200K line shows this even more dramatically.


Then, let's say you compare a halogen that is at 2600 vs. a LED that is at 2750 and both lights are at different ends of the binning chart - now the color is even MORE different from one to the next - even though the color temperature is pretty darn close.

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Last edited by JimLewis; 06-08-2012 at 06:23 PM.
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  #45  
Old 06-08-2012, 07:21 PM
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By the way, there is a fantastic Power Point presentation that goes over all sorts of awesome information about LEDs, history, components, what the critical components are, lifespan expectancy, binning, etc. All this stuff we are talking about in a nice Power Point Presentation done by Cree. It is here:

(The more informative of the two below is Part 2)

Part 1:
http://mzltg.com/blog/wp-content/upl...ion-part-1.ppt

Part 2:
http://mzltg.com/blog/wp-content/upl...ion-part-2.ppt

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  #46  
Old 06-08-2012, 08:37 PM
Richie@ Richie@ is offline
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Jim,

All of the charts and power point are very Informative but take 2 Bullets 1 with LED the other with MR 16 20 watt and aim them at 2 of the same objects and you will see a color difference , MR 16 will show a better color.
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  #47  
Old 06-08-2012, 09:01 PM
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"Better color" is pretty subjective. Better to you? It's a slightly different hue/color...yes. It's maybe not the color you're used to because you're used to seeing light emitted from a glowing filament. But I don't know that it's a better color. It's just that the other one is what you are used to. I think the color from most of the better LED fixtures/lamps on the market are pretty nice. I should clarify that I like the color I've seen from Brilliance LED, Kichler, and Vista. I do not like the color that comes from the FXL light fixtures, when you take the lenses off. (There is a reason they come with an amber lens already installed.)

So we got finished with this lighting project last night. The two photos above was just a small portion of the job. And we had neighbors walking up and down the street at dusk/dark while I was trying to take photos all stopping and gushing over how great it looked. I didn't tell any of them what kind of lights they were and they didn't even notice that they weren't incandescent or halogen. They just thought it looked awesome. And it did! Our clients absolutely loved it and we kept getting lots of compliments from the passerbys.

Here's another one we did not too long ago with the Kichler LED. You don't like the color of the lights in this photo?

(By the way, this is with no lenses and no photo enhancement. This is the true color that came out of the Kichler 15742)

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  #48  
Old 06-09-2012, 12:58 AM
David Gretzmier David Gretzmier is offline
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Jim, I appreciate your answers. I am glad none of your customers feel the need for lighting all night long. That will greatly extend the life of their system. I guess I just happen to have a high number of folks who are security conscious.

in addition to the all nighters, I have dozens per year who also are also pretty adamant about having the lighting on in the morning as well as evening. They have to go get the paper or they have coffee out on the back deck.

You are obviously comfortable with your answers, so I won't challenge them. For my own standards, LED just does not last long enough compared to every other thing I have done in landscape outside. When it comes to stuff I do that dies in it's own time, I need a longer clock.

I do think that LED's will approach that in the next 5 years. we will be hitting a theoretical ceiling on lumens per watt around then, and longevity as opposed to efficiency will be getting r&d dollars.

also, as incan's disappear, more and more consumers will enter the purchasing realm of longer lasting bulbs. manu's will want to sell to them and have the longest life hour claim.
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Old 06-09-2012, 07:12 AM
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Thank you for posting those links Jim
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  #50  
Old 06-09-2012, 09:38 AM
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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting is offline
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I would highly recommend that you guys join the AOLP and attend the Annual Conferences, paying close attention to the LAMP program that they offer. I have been involved along with Illumicare Group in the past two LAMP programs and the information and revelations have been illuminating to say the least.

In the program we take a wide variety of incandescent and LED lamps and do "real world" comparisons. The one thing that most have taken away from the program is that there is no standard or reference lamp from which to base your comparisons. The differences between same spec. halogen lamps are in some cases more noticeable and remarkable than the differences between same spec. LED lamps.

In terms of LED output, a lot of the information posted in this thread has been 'almost right'. I wish I had the time to go through each and every post and comment, but I am simply swamped with work & family commitments. My best advice to those of you who are using LED sources (I am thinking that is now everyone in North America except David. ) is to find a manufacturer of LED lamps or Fixtures that you like and stick with them. This will help to ensure that your projects are all in the same colour, hue and intensity. Nothing looks worse (to my eye) than seeing a project that has a mish-mash of colour temperatures... all close but not spot on. I see it more and more and it just looks like a dog's breakfast IMO.

This is my primary concern with using integrated LED fixtures. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of different companies doing a lot of really good things with LED fixtures. They all have their strengths, and without exception, they all have their weaknesses as well. The big problem comes when you start mixing and matching. Company A makes a great 3000K bullet, Company B makes the best 'Warm White' Path Light, and Company C makes the best LED step light (at 2850K). The problem is when you put these all together in the same composition.

Most people can see a 200K difference in colour temperature. Many pros can see as fine as a 100K difference. It is noticeable. Then there is the differences in hue and tone from different chip manufacturers and from different bins from the same manufacturers. The more you mix and match LED fixtures from different companies the more variance you will see in the output in your systems.

This is one reason why from day one I have been a fan of LED LAMPS. When using top quality LED Lamps (ones that have been specifically designed and manufactured for use in outdoor lighting systems) you can continue to use all of the fixtures (from all of the different manufacturers) you have grown to know, trust and rely upon and maintain consistency in terms of intensity, beam, colour, etc across your entire composition.

I would highly encourage you to look at the LED lamp options provided by Illumicare Group. www.illumicaregroup.com As far as I can tell they are still the only LED lamp company out there that has designed and manufactured each and every lamp specifically for use in enclosed fixtures and outdoor applications. They do not buy their lamps "off the shelf" or simply re-sell whatever some factory has produced that is "good enough".

Illumicare is a manufacturer of a full line of LED lamps to fit into almost every type of landscape lighting socket and fixture. MR16, SCB, S8 Wedge, T5 Wedge, G4 BiPin (in 4 configurations), G5.3 BiPin, PAR36.
All of their technical information, performance data and photometrics are published online (unlike so many LED fixture offerings) allowing you to confidently make comparisons before you buy.

If you have any LED lamp technical or application questions, don't hesitate to contact me. I will be happy to help you out. james@illumicaregroup.com

Lite-On!
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