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  #31  
Old 08-24-2012, 11:33 PM
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ted putnam ted putnam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
I hear a lot about products claiming to enhance soil microbes and "restore tired soils," like SumaGreen.

But, I can't find any studies that prove their claims. I've met with the owners of SumaGrow (makers of SumaGreen) many times and they have still not provided one scientific study to back up their claims. They like to show me a lot of corn and soybean pictures, but they have no turf or lawn data and no scientific research.

For a better understanding of soil microbiology and how SumaGreen-type products influence turf systems, watch this video:

http://webcast.usga.org/usga/zuberer_microbes.wmv

It's from Dr. David Zuberer, a soil microbiologist from Texas A&M. He lends a lot of insight into all the claims that these new microbial products are making.
Very Interesting and informative. A soil microbiologist of 36 yrs saying much of what we hear and see with many of these products claims is "hogwash."

Things that make ya go...Hmmm.
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  #32  
Old 09-03-2012, 06:54 AM
coolluv coolluv is online now
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I watched the video and it was interesting. So what does Phasthound have to say about what was in the video? Or anyone else for that matter.

Seems to me that he debunked the whole organic thing.


Dave...
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  #33  
Old 09-03-2012, 10:20 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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This doesn't debunk organics, but it does reinforce my question about: "What is the environment that we need for these microbes to flourish in???"

All he is saying is that,,, you can add whatever you want,,, but the microbes that thrive there are going to thrive until that environment changes...

The smart way to go is obviously to create the environment that 'beneficials' can thrive in...

Build It And They Will Come...
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  #34  
Old 09-03-2012, 10:43 AM
replenish&subdue replenish&subdue is offline
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I am glad the challenge was presented to answer the claims in the video from professor so and so. It is my whole point in starting the thread. I have used Holganix most of the year and now am trying SumaGreen. To me I do not question these are good products but I do have a question if they can substitute a traditional fertilization program for those who are in the business and need to satisfy their customer base by products that are not easy to explain to the customer. I think we organic heads kinda understand but if that is the case,I wonder why Holganix which has supposedly 23 extra products than SumaGreen is not given a deeper consideration. (Don't entertain that I am associated with Holganix in any way.)
It has been hard to judge the products at this time,I must finish up the last treatment then look at the yards. I do know Holganix (not tried SG on shrubs.) did well on shrubs but the preventative fungal properties did nothing to stop or slow down Take All Patch and question brown patch. It has been the worse drought I can remember here but most all my customers do have irrigation. (Most all the fungus problems came from improper watering because of irrigation)

I came away from the video of the professor as a jerk whose weight he liked to throw around was his 30 some years of specializing in microbiology and being a professor at a reputable college. I leave the studies for someone else to take apart. When he mocked homeopathic medicine I thought he is a skeptic in the non traditional and maybe the chemical/fertilizer puppet to have a case against the new frontier of organic approach. I have had my wife treat me with homeopathic to cure shingles immediately and has had more success on the children,her grandmother and herself. I was more so a skeptic till it did what no doctor could do.
Inspite of what professor blah says I believe the soil feeds the plant and not the other way around as he says. It is the way the Lord designed nature to work verses man using synthetic to feed the plant. We replenish the earth with the good and it subdues the evil pathogens. The soil also came before the plant,the soil supports the plant. Professor blah is one of the wise of the world who makes a fool of himself.
In our area of learning we are humbled by the complexity of it all. Soil is as different as a human to another. Sure there are the general loams and soil profiles but in comes the soil chemistry,conditions and a number of other factors. I wish the organic world had an easy system like it is in the traditional with P.N,K with pre & postemerges and fungicides for each kind of fungus,insecticide for each pest. But I do know how my soils were starving for life and as least compost and compost tea have proven to answer that need in a general way. I am attracted to Holganix and SumaGreen as a possible means to make it easier for the business professional to run a business with less chemicals and no synthetic fertilizer. To add the service of topdressing & tea where the customer will allow it.
I am not shaken by that professor but I am not convinced about these two new avenues of approach.
As mentioned in another post,I did have a newly sodded zoysia yard where the sod was firmly attached and I applied Holganix in the Spring and summer and the yard remained a sickly pale color. I applied the Lesco fertilizer and now it is so green and finally growing. Can't go by one failed yard. Overall my yards look good but nothing to become excited about. I had hoped for it to do better on the fungus but Take All is a tough one. I realize also an organic approach will not green & grow like synthetic. And then there was the drought which just broke through Issac,thank God.
So all you who are using these products or pushing them,what do you see?????
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  #35  
Old 09-03-2012, 11:10 AM
coolluv coolluv is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
This doesn't debunk organics, but it does reinforce my question about: "What is the environment that we need for these microbes to flourish in???"

All he is saying is that,,, you can add whatever you want,,, but the microbes that thrive there are going to thrive until that environment changes...

The smart way to go is obviously to create the environment that 'beneficials' can thrive in...

Build It And They Will Come...

I believe a good topdressing is best but its an expensive sell to the customer. I purchased 2 gallons the other day and I'm going to experiment a little with it. Some shrubs and my own lawn and maybe my garden.

I started using a product called Screemin Green and I'm really liking it. 16-2-3. I wanted to try and build the soil on some of my lackluster accounts that can't afford a topdressing and would never go for it. My own lawn never looked better since using Screemin Green.

Coincidence? Possibly. I didn't think of it when I ordered the Sumagreen but does that stuff keep as long as you let it breath?

Maybe I should have waited but I wanted to spray around some newly planted landscape plants I put in my backyard. I wanted to give them a shot before winter sets in. I'm going to spray some and not spray some and see if there is a difference.

I do believe yo have to build the soil but I'm not sure these products can do that. The professor seems to believe they can't.

I don't have 1\10 of the knowledge about this stuff as some of you have. I'm just getting my feet wet...one toe at a time.

Dave....
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  #36  
Old 09-03-2012, 11:16 AM
coolluv coolluv is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replenish&subdue View Post
I am glad the challenge was presented to answer the claims in the video from professor so and so. It is my whole point in starting the thread. I have used Holganix most of the year and now am trying SumaGreen. To me I do not question these are good products but I do have a question if they can substitute a traditional fertilization program for those who are in the business and need to satisfy their customer base by products that are not easy to explain to the customer. I think we organic heads kinda understand but if that is the case,I wonder why Holganix which has supposedly 23 extra products than SumaGreen is not given a deeper consideration. (Don't entertain that I am associated with Holganix in any way.)
It has been hard to judge the products at this time,I must finish up the last treatment then look at the yards. I do know Holganix (not tried SG on shrubs.) did well on shrubs but the preventative fungal properties did nothing to stop or slow down Take All Patch and question brown patch. It has been the worse drought I can remember here but most all my customers do have irrigation. (Most all the fungus problems came from improper watering because of irrigation)

I came away from the video of the professor as a jerk whose weight he liked to throw around was his 30 some years of specializing in microbiology and being a professor at a reputable college. I leave the studies for someone else to take apart. When he mocked homeopathic medicine I thought he is a skeptic in the non traditional and maybe the chemical/fertilizer puppet to have a case against the new frontier of organic approach. I have had my wife treat me with homeopathic to cure shingles immediately and has had more success on the children,her grandmother and herself. I was more so a skeptic till it did what no doctor could do.
Inspite of what professor blah says I believe the soil feeds the plant and not the other way around as he says. It is the way the Lord designed nature to work verses man using synthetic to feed the plant. We replenish the earth with the good and it subdues the evil pathogens. The soil also came before the plant,the soil supports the plant. Professor blah is one of the wise of the world who makes a fool of himself.
In our area of learning we are humbled by the complexity of it all. Soil is as different as a human to another. Sure there are the general loams and soil profiles but in comes the soil chemistry,conditions and a number of other factors. I wish the organic world had an easy system like it is in the traditional with P.N,K with pre & postemerges and fungicides for each kind of fungus,insecticide for each pest. But I do know how my soils were starving for life and as least compost and compost tea have proven to answer that need in a general way. I am attracted to Holganix and SumaGreen as a possible means to make it easier for the business professional to run a business with less chemicals and no synthetic fertilizer. To add the service of topdressing & tea where the customer will allow it.
I am not shaken by that professor but I am not convinced about these two new avenues of approach.
As mentioned in another post,I did have a newly sodded zoysia yard where the sod was firmly attached and I applied Holganix in the Spring and summer and the yard remained a sickly pale color. I applied the Lesco fertilizer and now it is so green and finally growing. Can't go by one failed yard. Overall my yards look good but nothing to become excited about. I had hoped for it to do better on the fungus but Take All is a tough one. I realize also an organic approach will not green & grow like synthetic. And then there was the drought which just broke through Issac,thank God.
So all you who are using these products or pushing them,what do you see?????
Good Post.

I want my lawns to stand out from the competition. I'm not saying these products work or don't work. I'm not doing it for the cost savings right now but that could become a factor. Plus I would like to offer an organic mix to my program.

I currently use Andersons fert products and I have been really satisfied with them. My better lawns look awesome and Ive even picked up a few customers because they liked the results of my customers lawns. I'm small time right now but I want to grow the fert side of my business because I really enjoy it. Much better than the maintenance side.

I would like to see this thread keep going. I appreciate everyone's responses.

Dave...
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  #37  
Old 09-03-2012, 11:40 AM
replenish&subdue replenish&subdue is offline
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I had one of my select organic customers call me just to say their yard has never looked better. On that yard I used screaming green only as a fertilizer.
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  #38  
Old 09-03-2012, 12:29 PM
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DUSTYCEDAR DUSTYCEDAR is offline
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my question is what happens when we mine all the nutrients out of the lawn
with this type of program?

i know when i seed i add starter fert, lime or whatever the soil test calls 4.
most in my area dont do this at all.

we have been using n,p,k ferts for ever and now in most areas the p has been taken out of the fert to keep the waterways cleaner.
fert companies jumped on this because it makes there fert cheaper to make.

trucking and spreading bagged fert is costly and the organic products have gotten so costly its almost out of the reach of the common customer.

holganix is appealing due to its small space requirement to store it but should we be adding p and k somehow to keep the lawn balanced or is there an endless supply locked up in the soil.
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  #39  
Old 09-03-2012, 12:57 PM
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turf hokie turf hokie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUSTYCEDAR View Post
my question is what happens when we mine all the nutrients out of the lawn
with this type of program?

i know when i seed i add starter fert, lime or whatever the soil test calls 4.
most in my area dont do this at all.

we have been using n,p,k ferts for ever and now in most areas the p has been taken out of the fert to keep the waterways cleaner.
fert companies jumped on this because it makes there fert cheaper to make.

trucking and spreading bagged fert is costly and the organic products have gotten so costly its almost out of the reach of the common customer.

holganix is appealing due to its small space requirement to store it but should we be adding p and k somehow to keep the lawn balanced or is there an endless supply locked up in the soil.
I have had these very thoughts rattling around in my head for a while now as well. We have been using Holganix on a good number of lawns, but dont want to chime in as it has been a screwy year and I want to get all the way thru before I put my 2 cents in....
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  #40  
Old 09-03-2012, 04:35 PM
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phasthound phasthound is offline
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When I sponsored this site, I was able to say a lot more about products. There were a few who constantly questioned my input as biased because of my business. I chose to drop my sponsorship rather than to have my ethics questioned.

I base what I believe on real world results. University studies help to provide guidelines but I do not view them as sacred. Dr Zubarer's presentation was interesting and I agree with a lot of what he said. Microbes are ubiquitous on this planet, synthetic fertilizers and pesticides don't sterilize the soil, there are many snake oils being sold. I do not agree with the conclusions he has drawn. I showed Dr. Zubarer's video to several LCO's & landscapers. A common response was, Bring him to my properties and tell me it's hogwash!

I have listened to and spoken with a fair number of other microbiologists who have come to different conclusions ranging from microbes can be used to solve everything, to microbes are known to have several beneficial uses, to microbes have a possible uses that need to be studied more. I have learned something from all of them.

What I value most is how well does a product or procedure perform in the field for the professional. For the past 7 years I have gradually changed my perspective on a lot of things, including but not limited to soil health and how it effects plant health. I have learned to look beyond how we grow grass and include the impact of what we do into the overall equations.

I know that it is just as easy to professionally maintain beautiful healthy lawns with less health and environmental concerns (whether they are true or conceived) as it is to maintain green lawns the conventional way. This is being accomplished by more and more companies every year. Programs that focus on sound cultural methods and improve soil health no longer cost more than conventional programs. A good program need not be either chemical or organic. Improve plant health and you will have less need for pesticides. Using pesticides properly, yet infrequently. will not eliminate the benefits of an organic system. There are no silver bullets.
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