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  #11  
Old 10-01-2012, 09:28 AM
kawakx125 kawakx125 is offline
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wasn't that long ago diesel was at LEAST a dollar cheaper than 87 gasoline
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  #12  
Old 10-01-2012, 09:33 AM
32vld 32vld is offline
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To just say gasoline has more energy per gallon and then walk away leaves out a lot of important information.

If gasoline is the more powerful fuel then when are the alcohol and nitromethane users going to start losing races to gasoline running cars instead of having the fastest times?

Gasoline A/F ratio is 14.7:1.

Gasoline engines need 14.7 parts of air to burn all of that 1 part of gas up during combustion. Putting in more fuel will just be wasting it.

Alcohol has less energy though more fuel gets into each cylinder. Because it needs less air to completely burn so some of the air's volume is replaced with fuel. A/F ratio is around 6:1 with alcohol.

That means that alcohol fueled engines get 2.45 more times the fuel into the cylinder.

Alcohol has 2/3 the energy of gasoline. But 2.45 times more alcohol gets into the cylinder. So multiply .667 x 2.45 = 1.63 more energy.

Alcohol fuel has it's advantages and disadvantages. Where I live you only can buy 10% blend alcohol and gas at the pump.

When manufacturers refuse to build there equipment to be able to run with alcohol blended fuels they are refusing to face reality and giving their customers a big FU with every piece of equipment that they sell to their customers, or should replace the words sell to their customers with stick it to their customers.

Years ago when alcohol was introduced into gas by federal mandate I was a GM dealer mechanic. At the factory GM school their instructor said that GM told the gov. that it's cars can run on alcohol up to 10%.
That the ethanol should be the alcohol of choice. It is less harmful to the cars parts.

That methanol would need to be run at a 5% blend and would be more harmful to the cars parts.

Well our elected representatives in the capital let the methanol lobbist's buy their votes instead of listening to the automotive manufacturing experts.

So we had more alcohol related problems as a result. Then as happens eventually station tanks leak and the MTBE, which the added methanol was named began to poison our waters. This is when the Fed Gov prohibited MTBE as a fuel additive with replaced it with ethanol.

Common sense is when engine manufactures say ethanol is a better fuel additive then methanol. When ethanol is non poisonous (it is in our favorite adult beverages) so if it was to leak into the ground waters the environment would not be harmed. That methanol/MTBE use as a fuel additive would of been rejected by both houses of congress.

The question that needs to be asked: Why does the American public continually vote in people that are that dumb, that corrupt, or both, every election?

Maybe congress feared an ethanol shortage and the end of the three martini lunches, and all business in Washington DC would come to a stand still for they would not have the fuel and lubrication so necessary to govern.



Last edited by 32vld; 10-01-2012 at 09:40 AM.
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  #13  
Old 10-01-2012, 09:42 AM
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easy-lift guy easy-lift guy is online now
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Originally Posted by MWLawnService View Post
Tell me about it. It makes absolutely no sense.
Diesel cost more becuse we are exporting all excess supplies and the balance for domestic consumption pays the difference. Just returned from the UK on a business trip Two weeks ago and Diesel was $9.00 per gal. If anyone wants to complain abouit the fuel cost here in the US, you and everyone else have no idea how good you have it.
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  #14  
Old 10-01-2012, 10:43 AM
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cgaengineer cgaengineer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 32vld View Post
To just say gasoline has more energy per gallon and then walk away leaves out a lot of important information.

If gasoline is the more powerful fuel then when are the alcohol and nitromethane users going to start losing races to gasoline running cars instead of having the fastest times?

Gasoline A/F ratio is 14.7:1.

Gasoline engines need 14.7 parts of air to burn all of that 1 part of gas up during combustion. Putting in more fuel will just be wasting it.

Alcohol has less energy though more fuel gets into each cylinder. Because it needs less air to completely burn so some of the air's volume is replaced with fuel. A/F ratio is around 6:1 with alcohol.

That means that alcohol fueled engines get 2.45 more times the fuel into the cylinder.

Alcohol has 2/3 the energy of gasoline. But 2.45 times more alcohol gets into the cylinder. So multiply .667 x 2.45 = 1.63 more energy.

Alcohol fuel has it's advantages and disadvantages. Where I live you only can buy 10% blend alcohol and gas at the pump.

When manufacturers refuse to build there equipment to be able to run with alcohol blended fuels they are refusing to face reality and giving their customers a big FU with every piece of equipment that they sell to their customers, or should replace the words sell to their customers with stick it to their customers.

Years ago when alcohol was introduced into gas by federal mandate I was a GM dealer mechanic. At the factory GM school their instructor said that GM told the gov. that it's cars can run on alcohol up to 10%.
That the ethanol should be the alcohol of choice. It is less harmful to the cars parts.

That methanol would need to be run at a 5% blend and would be more harmful to the cars parts.

Well our elected representatives in the capital let the methanol lobbist's buy their votes instead of listening to the automotive manufacturing experts.

So we had more alcohol related problems as a result. Then as happens eventually station tanks leak and the MTBE, which the added methanol was named began to poison our waters. This is when the Fed Gov prohibited MTBE as a fuel additive with replaced it with ethanol.

Common sense is when engine manufactures say ethanol is a better fuel additive then methanol. When ethanol is non poisonous (it is in our favorite adult beverages) so if it was to leak into the ground waters the environment would not be harmed. That methanol/MTBE use as a fuel additive would of been rejected by both houses of congress.

The question that needs to be asked: Why does the American public continually vote in people that are that dumb, that corrupt, or both, every election?

Maybe congress feared an ethanol shortage and the end of the three martini lunches, and all business in Washington DC would come to a stand still for they would not have the fuel and lubrication so necessary to govern.


You backed my statement. Pound for pound, less energy. It takes more alcohol to equal the same btu as gasoline. And unless the engine is designed to run on alcohol the performance vs gasoline will be less.
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  #15  
Old 10-01-2012, 10:58 AM
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cgaengineer cgaengineer is offline
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Two equal compression engines, one running ethanol and one gas. The gas engine would produce more power...can't be argued, goes against physics.

Change the compression ratio which adds more air to the combustion process allowing the lower energy, but higher octane alcohol to produce more power.
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  #16  
Old 10-01-2012, 11:01 AM
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cgaengineer cgaengineer is offline
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And once again...everyone brings out race cars using alcohol vs gasoline.

Your daily driver is not a race car, a race engine or a high compression engine...nor is your "designed for 87 octane" mower or trimmer.
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  #17  
Old 10-01-2012, 12:13 PM
kawakx125 kawakx125 is offline
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alcohol also has a higher octane rating, and the extra fuel also equates to some extra cylinder cooling. Yes, when you are talking full on race engine alcohol has plenty of advantages. that makes up a very small portion of engines out there, and they aren't on the road. even with the 10% ethanol being sold in pumps now there IS a mileage drop, and with the drought we had this year i doubt ethanol has much savings at all. If you compare e85 to gasoline i don't believe there is any cost savings. E85 is only at max 40-50 cents cheaper around here. I get 17mpg on gasoline and i've heard i'd get maybe 11-12 with e85.

today gasoline was 3.65 at quiktrip. that is 22 cents per mile at 17mpg for me.
E85 is 3.20. that is 27 cents per mile at 12mpg. for me, it's actually MORE expensive to use e85
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  #18  
Old 10-01-2012, 01:57 PM
32vld 32vld is offline
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Originally Posted by cgaengineer View Post
Two equal compression engines, one running ethanol and one gas. The gas engine would produce more power...can't be argued, goes against physics.

Change the compression ratio which adds more air to the combustion process allowing the lower energy, but higher octane alcohol to produce more power.
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Changing compression ratio does not change the amount of air that a naturally aspirated engine can draw in.

Alcohol engines do not produce more power because they run at a higher compression. They produce more power because more fuel gets into the cylinder. Lower energy fuel is put in quantity greater, 2.45 times more fuel, enough greater volume of fuel that more power is produced.

Last edited by 32vld; 10-01-2012 at 02:02 PM.
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  #19  
Old 10-01-2012, 03:34 PM
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cgaengineer cgaengineer is offline
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Originally Posted by 32vld View Post
Changing compression ratio does not change the amount of air that a naturally aspirated engine can draw in.

Alcohol engines do not produce more power because they run at a higher compression. They produce more power because more fuel gets into the cylinder. Lower energy fuel is put in quantity greater, 2.45 times more fuel, enough greater volume of fuel that more power is produced.
My analogy on compression ratio was described wrong.

Please explain to me how more fuel would get into the cylinder of a stock engine running alcohol vs gasoline. Both equal engines, same carbs same everything.

When I ran karts the carb jets were drilled larger for alcohol but no power gains were achieved from running alcohol. Dyno testing proved this. Same engines, same carbs...change one jet to run alcohol, now change the jet to run gas...same power.

Now try to run the alcohol engine on gasoline or vice versa and they would not run properly if at all.
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Last edited by cgaengineer; 10-01-2012 at 03:39 PM.
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  #20  
Old 10-01-2012, 11:01 PM
32vld 32vld is offline
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If you are going to put the same amount of fuel is one thing.

The advantage of why you can use alcohol to get more power is because you can put more fuel in a cylinder and it will completely burn. Where extra gasoline won't get burnt and will go out the tail pipe.

Why do alcohol dragsters go faster?

Is it because alcohol weighs less then gas so the weight reduction makes them faster?

Or is it they can get more power out of alcohol?

Yes different fuels have different btu producing ability. That fact alone is misleading because ignores what can be done in the real world.

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