Register free!
Search
 
     

The Green Industry's Resource Center


Click for Weather
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 10-01-2012, 08:02 PM
tonygreek's Avatar
tonygreek tonygreek is online now
LawnSite Silver Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 2,533
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Oomkes View Post
Horse hockey.

What if one lives in an at-will state? Michigan is, I can fire for any reason or no reason.
Mark, you realize that's a gross oversimplification of an at-will state's employment laws, right? If you flex the muscles of at-will employment, you're much better off by terminating without giving reason. Giving reason opens possible doors to challenging, and an at-will state does not mean you can fire for any reason.

As for horse hockey, love that phrase. Rest in peace, Colonel Potter.
__________________
a guy who knows the lawn industry, branding, and web strategy
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-02-2012, 06:46 AM
Mark Oomkes Mark Oomkes is online now
LawnSite Fanatic
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 6,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by grandview (2006) View Post
Does the employee handbook give the foreman the right to fire someone? Do you have a human resource dept that this person can go to first to find out if it personal or professional firing?
You've never fired someone for a personal reason?

If I own the company and can't get along with an employee, even if they are doing a good job, is it wrong or against the law?

Why would it need to be in the handbook if they are the person's superior?

The second question is where the training comes in.

I have a guy working for me right now that has supervised more people than I have, at his past job. For a nationwide company. Pretty sure he knows more about properly firing someone than I do. But I can't trust him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonygreek View Post
Mark, you realize that's a gross oversimplification of an at-will state's employment laws, right? If you flex the muscles of at-will employment, you're much better off by terminating without giving reason. Giving reason opens possible doors to challenging, and an at-will state does not mean you can fire for any reason.

As for horse hockey, love that phrase. Rest in peace, Colonel Potter.
Yes, I do Tony. And you are absolutely correct, better to give no reason at all.

MASH, forever a classic.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-02-2012, 07:41 AM
McFarland_Lawn_Care's Avatar
McFarland_Lawn_Care McFarland_Lawn_Care is offline
LawnSite Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sedgwick, Maine
Posts: 1,085
Subscribing....

Grandview, yes we all have huge human resource depts that the employees can go to for information. Come on!! Most of us are small to medium sized businesses....a handbook and P&P need to be in place, but as long as you check state and federal laws on firing employees, you should be all set. Anyone can sue you for any reason, doesn't mean they are going to win in court! Be professional and document it all and it will be fine. As far as I'm concerned it should be the owner's responsibility to hire and fire. Foreman can make strong suggestions, but he shouldn't have to do the dirty work.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-02-2012, 07:49 AM
Mark Oomkes Mark Oomkes is online now
LawnSite Fanatic
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 6,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by McFarland_Lawn_Care View Post
As far as I'm concerned it should be the owner's responsibility to hire and fire. Foreman can make strong suggestions, but he shouldn't have to do the dirty work.
I'm not going to go into it because I can't remember the specific details, but there are valid reasons for having someone else perform hiring\firing. Something to do with reducing liability of the owner\officers.

That was a long time ago. I'll try to clean the cobwebs out of my brain and see if I can remember.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-02-2012, 01:01 PM
grandview (2006)'s Avatar
grandview (2006) grandview (2006) is online now
LawnSite Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lancaster N.Y.
Posts: 3,374
Quote:
Originally Posted by McFarland_Lawn_Care View Post
Subscribing....

Grandview, yes we all have huge human resource depts that the employees can go to for information. Come on!! Most of us are small to medium sized businesses....a handbook and P&P need to be in place, but as long as you check state and federal laws on firing employees, you should be all set. Anyone can sue you for any reason, doesn't mean they are going to win in court! Be professional and document it all and it will be fine. As far as I'm concerned it should be the owner's responsibility to hire and fire. Foreman can make strong suggestions, but he shouldn't have to do the dirty work.
I was just putting out the human resource thing. So you give the foreman the ok to fire someone. Then what, he does it again ,then one more time. Need to start thinking and give involved with it. Courts and lawyers cost money win or lose.
__________________
www.grandviewlandscaping.com
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-03-2012, 12:12 AM
Kelly's Landscaping's Avatar
Kelly's Landscaping Kelly's Landscaping is offline
LawnSite Gold Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Milford CT
Posts: 3,652
And how many people sue over losing a landscaping laborer job?

I hate firing people but as the owner it is your job. But the term foreman is thrown around allot and can mean different things to different people and companies. If the guy ran a 2-3 man crew including himself I wouldn't give him that power. But if he supervised the lawn operations and had 20 guys or more under him then yes he would answer to me and they would answer to him and he would have that power.

Middle management does it all the time say you owned a dozen subway franchises you going to tell me the manager of one of them couldn't hire and fire at will. We just happen to have a more hands on owner type of trade and so hiring and firing is traditionally our job but it could be delegated if you choose.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-13-2012, 07:58 PM
nealster nealster is offline
LawnSite Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Hilton Head, SC
Posts: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnybow View Post
Have you ever given a foreman that worked for you the ability to fire someone? For example, if you werent able to work directly with a crew and he was the man in charge. Any experiences?
Absolutely not, he is not hired to manage your company, he is hired to run the crew. If you want to get rid of someone, have documented offenses otherwise you will be subject to a lawsuit, even if you are in a right to work state.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-14-2012, 02:44 PM
bohiaa's Avatar
bohiaa bohiaa is offline
LawnSite Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Bellville Texas, near Houston
Posts: 5,017
YES. it's done all the time. We have a gentelman that seemed to be accident prone. One day he cost us over 3,000.00 in 2 hours. NOT only did the foreman FIRE HIM. he called me to come take the guy away from the site. he would NOT let him even sit in the truck and wait
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-15-2012, 08:50 AM
Mark Oomkes Mark Oomkes is online now
LawnSite Fanatic
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 6,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by nealster View Post
Absolutely not, he is not hired to manage your company, he is hired to run the crew. If you want to get rid of someone, have documented offenses otherwise you will be subject to a lawsuit, even if you are in a right to work state.
These statements are ridiculous.

So you are saying that the likes of Brickman and other companies with 20, 50 or 100 employees do not allow foreman to terminate an employee? The owner does it all?

And the last statement is just absurd. This has nothing to do with right to work, we are talking "at-will" employment.

You do NOT have to have documented offenses. Stop giving out bad information.
__________________
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman

I like my guns like Obama likes his voters: Undocumented

Criminals obey gun laws like politicians follow their oaths of office
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1998 - 2012, LawnSite.com™ - Moose River Media
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:28 PM.

Page generated in 0.07495 seconds with 9 queries