Octane rating or ethanol. Which is more

[cgaengineer]

Originally Posted by CL&T

I think it's a stretch to say that ethanol has been in gasoline since the early 90's. I remember going from lead to MBTE. That disaster was banned starting in 2004 and replaced with ethanol, another disaster.

You also can't compare the use of dry gas. A few ounces added to a tank of gas- the percentage would hardly approach the 10% and up we have to deal with today. Further, I doubt anybody used it for small engines.

So your statement that small engine manufacturers have had 30 years to figure how to make their equipment run well on gas/alcohol mix is hardly inaccurate.

Yeah, 8oz of methanol fuel treatment in a 20 gallon tank is no where close to 10%. This was used to absorb water due to condensation which would help the water mix with the fuel since it attaches itself to the alcohol. I too can only remember ethanol being added to fuel within the last 10 years...
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[cgaengineer]

2005 was the year when ethanol was required in fuels...
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[kawakx125]

are you saying that the gasoline demand has gone down? i'm talking about the steep increase in price of diesel just in the past 10 years, compared to gasoline. 10 years ago diesel was much cheaper than gasoline, now its more expensive.

[32vld]

Originally Posted by CL&T

I think it's a stretch to say that ethanol has been in gasoline since the early 90's. I remember going from lead to MBTE. That disaster was banned starting in 2004 and replaced with ethanol, another disaster.

You also can't compare the use of dry gas. A few ounces added to a tank of gas- the percentage would hardly approach the 10% and up we have to deal with today. Further, I doubt anybody used it for small engines.

So your statement that small engine manufacturers have had 30 years to figure how to make their equipment run well on gas/alcohol mix is hardly inaccurate.

Not a stretch and I did not say ethanol I said alcohol since the early 90's.
MTBE which had methanol as the form of alcohol was chosen by the Fed Gov/EPA to be mixed in the gas at 5%. In 1992 I sat in the class at a General Motors Training Center. Things I have been stating were taught to me there.

Then methanol was replaced with ethanol when MTBE was banned. Since the 90's when alcohol was added to fuel whether methanol then later ethanol you could not buy gas that was alcohol free where I live. Small engine manufacturers have had 30 years to get ready. They chose to drag their feet.

If alcohol was so harmful, people had no problem putting in two cans at a time of dry gas, isopropyl alcohol, in their gas tanks.

[32vld]

Originally Posted by kawakx125

are you saying that the gasoline demand has gone down? i'm talking about the steep increase in price of diesel just in the past 10 years, compared to gasoline. 10 years ago diesel was much cheaper than gasoline, now its more expensive.

Can you point out where I said gasoline cosumption has gone down?

I do know that every decade there are more cars on the road then the previous one.

I do know that big luxury cars in the late 1950's and 1960's got 12 mpg.
That luxury sedans today get double that.
That my 2001 full sized suburban will get 20.7 mpg

What I don't know is how much increased cars and light trucks on the road is offset by much better gas mileage to say exactly how much gas consumption has grown.

What I did point out was a response to why diesel demand has geatly increased and this is why diesel costs more the gasoline. That there are so many more diesel trucks every decade since the 1940's. Where by the 1970's so many types of truck beside 18 wheelers have gone to diesel power.

[CL&T]

... are you saying that the gasoline demand has gone down?

Yes. Actually it has because of more fuel efficient vehicles and less miles driven because of high gasoline costs. That has really thrown a monkey wrench into the government requirement of yearly increases in ethanol consumption. They were counting on increased gasoline consumption which is what they promised the "corn cartel". But the opposite happened and E85 never caught on which is why they are moving to up the ethanol percentage to 15%.

... i'm talking about the steep increase in price of diesel just in the past 10 years, compared to gasoline. 10 years ago diesel was much cheaper than gasoline, now its more expensive.

As much as I looked I really can't find a satisfactory answer to that. Low sulphur and increased consumption are factors. Some places say that refinaries are geared to gasoline production so diesel production is less but then I see that we produce more diesel than we use. So all I can think of is that somebody is making money off of it.

[CL&T]

Originally Posted by 32vld

Not a stretch and I did not say ethanol I said alcohol since the early 90's.
MTBE which had methanol as the form of alcohol was chosen by the Fed Gov/EPA to be mixed in the gas at 5%. In 1992 I sat in the class at a General Motors Training Center. Things I have been stating were taught to me there.

Then methanol was replaced with ethanol when MTBE was banned. Since the 90's when alcohol was added to fuel whether methanol then later ethanol you could not buy gas that was alcohol free where I live. Small engine manufacturers have had 30 years to get ready. They chose to drag their feet.

MTBE is not methanol, it is derived from methanol and isobutylene.

Forgeting for the moment that ethanol and MTBE will destroy rubber compounds which include fuel lines and other fuel system components, there is nothing that can be done about phase separation where the gasoline and ethanol laden water separate out. This is not something manufacturers could "get ready for" by doing anything about.

If alcohol was so harmful, people had no problem putting in two cans at a time of dry gas, isopropyl alcohol, in their gas tanks

Well, lets see. Two cans of dry gas is what, 40 oz? Mix that with 20 gallons of fuel what do you have, about 1.5% if my math is correct.

[32vld]

Originally Posted by CL&T

MTBE is not methanol, it is derived from methanol and isobutylene.

Forgeting for the moment that ethanol and MTBE will destroy rubber compounds which include fuel lines and other fuel system components, there is nothing that can be done about phase separation where the gasoline and ethanol laden water separate out. This is not something manufacturers could "get ready for" by doing anything about.



Well, lets see. Two cans of dry gas is what, 40 oz? Mix that with 20 gallons of fuel what do you have, about 1.5% if my math is correct.

30+ years ago when GM learned that the Gov. mandated that alcohol be added to gasoline changed the rubber composition and other parts of their fuel systems to withstand the use of alcohol. GM did so could the small engine manufacturers of done that.

Back then GM said told the Gov that it's cars would have no problem with 10% ethanol but only could go to 5% methanol. Anything over 5% methanol would dissolve the TERN anti rust coating on the inside of the fuel tanks to prevent corrosion. Because the TERN coating contained lead and that lead would mix with the fuel eventually ruining the catalytic converters.

As to separation which you brought up first I say one can't be lazy and leave fuel in tanks to long or use stale fuel.

[32vld]

The only further alcohol talking I will participate is about the kind Homer Simpson uses.

[CL&T]

More to the point I really don't know why you seem to be pro ethanol. It does nothing except damage equipment and line the pockets of corn farmers and politicians. This is just another government program that benefits special interest groups at the expense of everybody else. Indirectly you even show that we would be better off with straight gas because of the problems ethanol causes.