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  #1  
Old 10-08-2012, 07:50 AM
ArTurf ArTurf is offline
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Calculating N rates on iron products

When custom mixing with iron products that contain a small amount of N, for instance ferromec 15% N. This product can be can be applied at 2-10 oz per K. How do you figure how much N you are applying at varous rates?
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  #2  
Old 10-08-2012, 08:12 AM
Duekster Duekster is offline
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Originally Posted by ArTurf View Post
When custom mixing with iron products that contain a small amount of N, for instance ferromec 15% N. This product can be can be applied at 2-10 oz per K. How do you figure how much N you are applying at varous rates?
the N is 15% by weight. I would say you are adding .1 Pound per 10 OZ.

The lower end dose is often used for weekly feedings at Golf Courses.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:01 PM
Skipster Skipster is online now
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This sounds like the guy who asked if he needs to mix the chemicals with water to spray the parking lot someone asked him to spray.

All liquid fertilizers will have a density figure on the label or MSDS. Sometimes it will be called "specific gravity," sometimes it will be called "weight per gallon." On the Ferromec 15-0-0 label, it says the product weighs 11 lbs per gallon.

So, that means that each gallon has 1.65# N in it. If you're spraying at 10 fl oz/M (M is the Roman numeral for 1000 and is used to represent 1000 sg ft; K is the chemical symbol for potassium), you are applying 0.128# N/M (1.65# N per gallon /128 fl oz per gallon * 10 fl oz/M application rate).

Isn't this stuff on the certified applicator's exam?
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  #4  
Old 10-08-2012, 08:34 PM
ArTurf ArTurf is offline
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Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
This sounds like the guy who asked if he needs to mix the chemicals with water to spray the parking lot someone asked him to spray.

All liquid fertilizers will have a density figure on the label or MSDS. Sometimes it will be called "specific gravity," sometimes it will be called "weight per gallon." On the Ferromec 15-0-0 label, it says the product weighs 11 lbs per gallon.

So, that means that each gallon has 1.65# N in it. If you're spraying at 10 fl oz/M (M is the Roman numeral for 1000 and is used to represent 1000 sg ft; K is the chemical symbol for potassium), you are applying 0.128# N/M (1.65# N per gallon /128 fl oz per gallon * 10 fl oz/M application rate).

Isn't this stuff on the certified applicator's exam?
I knew I would get slammed on this one, maybe I deserved it but you never know til you ask. For what it is worth I know how to figure rates on granular but am pretty new to the liquid.

Give me a little break though, it wasn't as bad as the parking lot thread.
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  #5  
Old 10-08-2012, 09:21 PM
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ted putnam ted putnam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArTurf View Post
I knew I would get slammed on this one, maybe I deserved it but you never know til you ask. For what it is worth I know how to figure rates on granular but am pretty new to the liquid.

Give me a little break though, it wasn't as bad as the parking lot thread.
You're right. It isn't as bad as the parking lot thread.

I had wondered about this same thing 3 or 4 yrs ago and did some label reading and figured it out for myself. I too was not used to using pre- concentrated liquid ferts. I have used plenty of fert in liquid form but it was always soluble bagged ferts added to the tank with water/agitation and my figures came from anylysis on dry weight bags in pounds not fluid ozs or gallons in jugs/containers.

I knew if I asked before doing my best to figure it out on my own, someone would have something smart-azz to say...there's always a couple that do.

I don't know everything about all things(like some folks around here) but you can PM me anytime you have a question and I'll try to help.
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  #6  
Old 10-08-2012, 11:10 PM
Skipster Skipster is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArTurf View Post
I knew I would get slammed on this one, maybe I deserved it but you never know til you ask. For what it is worth I know how to figure rates on granular but am pretty new to the liquid.

Give me a little break though, it wasn't as bad as the parking lot thread.
Sorry, I was a bit harsh on that one. But, I think that labels are important and knowing how to calculate product, fertilizer, and active ingredient amounts is what separates professionals from amateurs. Any lawn boy can follow directions -- mix some of this with some of that. Any lawn boy can mix 2-10 oz/M (and use the wrong unit abreviations to do it), but it takes professionalism and critical thinking abilities to understand what that mix rate means and how to apply it to a business in which no two lawns are the same. You can bet that the big companies have guys who can do that, and do it every day.

This lack of understanding of products and labels is why the EPA and state regulators come down hard on LCOs, but not as hard on golf courses and sod growers -- they see that the golf and sod guys have more education and know how to read labels, which makes EPA think they are smarter and better than LCOs.

Did you guys know that MSMA use was continued for golf course, sod farm, and ROW use, but not for home lawn use? The decision not to include home lawns in the use extension was precisely because LCOs are showing EPA that they can't understand product labels and won't follow them.

In your post, ArTurf, calculating the amount of N in a liquid fertilizer is exactly the same as calculating the amount of active ingredient applied from a liquid herbicide. You still need to know how to find the info on the label and do the simple math.

I don't want to belittle you or slam you for asking a simple question -- asking questions is how we learn. But, we're fighting a battle of perception here. EPA and the state regulators see the golf course and sod guys as having college degrees andbeign active in state and national organizations that require continuing education beyond the minimum level to maintain your pesticide license. They look at LCOs as lawn boys who only meet the minimum for state certification and can't even read a label.

I'm sorry I turned this into such a rant, but I want everyone in our industry to rise to the level of the college educated golf course superintendent. The big boys have several college educated guys on thair staff and even some PhDs sprinkled in, so they can make the case to the regulators that they're better than everyone else. If we can't be at least as knowledgable about what we do as the college educated guys, LCOs will always get the sort end of the stick from the regulators.
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  #7  
Old 10-09-2012, 07:06 AM
ArTurf ArTurf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
Sorry, I was a bit harsh on that one. But, I think that labels are important and knowing how to calculate product, fertilizer, and active ingredient amounts is what separates professionals from amateurs. Any lawn boy can follow directions -- mix some of this with some of that. Any lawn boy can mix 2-10 oz/M (and use the wrong unit abreviations to do it), but it takes professionalism and critical thinking abilities to understand what that mix rate means and how to apply it to a business in which no two lawns are the same. You can bet that the big companies have guys who can do that, and do it every day.

This lack of understanding of products and labels is why the EPA and state regulators come down hard on LCOs, but not as hard on golf courses and sod growers -- they see that the golf and sod guys have more education and know how to read labels, which makes EPA think they are smarter and better than LCOs.

Did you guys know that MSMA use was continued for golf course, sod farm, and ROW use, but not for home lawn use? The decision not to include home lawns in the use extension was precisely because LCOs are showing EPA that they can't understand product labels and won't follow them.

In your post, ArTurf, calculating the amount of N in a liquid fertilizer is exactly the same as calculating the amount of active ingredient applied from a liquid herbicide. You still need to know how to find the info on the label and do the simple math.

I don't want to belittle you or slam you for asking a simple question -- asking questions is how we learn. But, we're fighting a battle of perception here. EPA and the state regulators see the golf course and sod guys as having college degrees andbeign active in state and national organizations that require continuing education beyond the minimum level to maintain your pesticide license. They look at LCOs as lawn boys who only meet the minimum for state certification and can't even read a label.

I'm sorry I turned this into such a rant, but I want everyone in our industry to rise to the level of the college educated golf course superintendent. The big boys have several college educated guys on thair staff and even some PhDs sprinkled in, so they can make the case to the regulators that they're better than everyone else. If we can't be at least as knowledgable about what we do as the college educated guys, LCOs will always get the sort end of the stick from the regulators.
No problem, I didn't take it that hard. Like I said I prob deserved it for being lazy and not figuring it out on my own.

For what it is worth the golf course supers in my area are often uneducated with no certification of any kind, SAD but true. From what I've seen they have no idea what they are doing. My guess is there are a lot of them since golf courses in general are struggling financially.

Ted, Thanks.
What about the golf courses in your area?
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  #8  
Old 10-18-2012, 10:51 PM
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Think Green Think Green is offline
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Had to chime in on this one Skipster, Ar Tur, and Ted.
No------Liquid fert conversions is not or it wasn't on the State certification exams back 12 years ago when I took them. I guess when you are in a area that is pretty much Agriculture of rice, soybeans, corn, milo...........granular is the best, less expensive route. Liquid is used here only during bolt on soybeans mostly.........called coron 25-0-0.
I felt pretty daft when I was looking for the conversions and stumbled on the equations!!!
Pretty easy to figure but when you aren't directed to the formula's, it only makes you seem inadequate. I have called the Extension Services, University, and other State officials only to be told--------as RIC tells it--" Enumerate!"
I guess more people in this world has problems with simple math than expected.
I have spent more time on formula's to make Einstein's wink but I am still learning to put it all in context.
I hate asking a question about stuff I should already know---------and after years......have forgotten!!!
I have been sat in the corner of the short bus several times because I was seeking a Cliff's Notes version of these formula's before. So don't feel like a tick turd among a mountain of dinosaur dung.
We are not all treated fairly!!!!!!
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:09 PM
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Skipster,
I recall greatly that the State general EPA section on label education dealt not with understanding or the calculations of A.I. and solution mathematics. I guess they feel that if we know all this stuff, then why are we not working as Chemists. You know that what makes the public the public is by what they know. It is easier to keep people smaller by limiting their education.
Anyway, The label section showed us how to read one by section. The EPA registration numbers, PPE, handling and disposal only. Oh, and the product by name not tradename.

I was pretty much disappointed with some of the outcomes with the exams, but I passed and will continue to learn as we go.
Maybe, in your state or application forum, you are led to believe that it is because of uneducated use. I feel that it has all to do with the eliminating a dinosaur product that wasn't generating much capital. Something has to take the fall for other products to move in. I agree that education is what separates Man from the Neanderthals, but there is a fine line there. How far an education system goes is how educated its people is.!!
I can go to my local grower..........great friend of 25 years and he probably couldn't tell you the inner workings or atomic weight of Chlorine to figure out the percentage of a concentrate either. Not many people need to know this formula.........that is what makes a chemist a chemist.
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  #10  
Old 10-19-2012, 02:26 AM
greendoctor greendoctor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Think Green View Post
Skipster,
I recall greatly that the State general EPA section on label education dealt not with understanding or the calculations of A.I. and solution mathematics. I guess they feel that if we know all this stuff, then why are we not working as Chemists. You know that what makes the public the public is by what they know. It is easier to keep people smaller by limiting their education.
Anyway, The label section showed us how to read one by section. The EPA registration numbers, PPE, handling and disposal only. Oh, and the product by name not tradename.

I was pretty much disappointed with some of the outcomes with the exams, but I passed and will continue to learn as we go.
Maybe, in your state or application forum, you are led to believe that it is because of uneducated use. I feel that it has all to do with the eliminating a dinosaur product that wasn't generating much capital. Something has to take the fall for other products to move in. I agree that education is what separates Man from the Neanderthals, but there is a fine line there. How far an education system goes is how educated its people is.!!
I can go to my local grower..........great friend of 25 years and he probably couldn't tell you the inner workings or atomic weight of Chlorine to figure out the percentage of a concentrate either. Not many people need to know this formula.........that is what makes a chemist a chemist.
FQPA, ala Carole Browner also has something to do with this process. Products for which there are no practical replacements are being or have been removed from the T, O, and N markets in the name of "saving the children". The cheaper products with their simpler chemistry were also good tools and even more valuable now for resistance management. Most insecticides are either pyrethroid or neonicotinoids. Turf fungicides are all DMI or strobilurins. I am still around even though diazinon and mancozeb were used on home lawns. My parents just told me to keep off the grass.
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