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  #21  
Old 11-09-2012, 04:03 PM
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1idejim 1idejim is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcg View Post
A test takes like 2 minutes and repair on a new device usually involves nothing more than cleaning the pipe glue or other debris out of it, maybe another 2 minutes depending on the valve type. Why would anyone who has gone through all the trouble to get a BPAT cert lie to save themselves 5 minutes? Seems pointless to me.

I only got my BPAT so I could test for myself. I don't install much (unless it's a replacement) but what I do install I test to save time and money, not to game the system. Hell, I don't even charge the customer extra for the test, I just do it because it should be done.
Tx and i are of the minority i guess.

I guess there has never been a rigged election, Bill Clinton never inhaled, we don't need building inspections, justice is truely blind and there is no need for backflow prevention.

Anytime a human being is placed in a position where they can write their own ticket, a portion will speed just because they can get away with it. If someone else writes the ticket, they will drive slower.

I believe that having a third party test removes any doubts.

Since i am of the minority i will stfu.
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  #22  
Old 11-09-2012, 04:15 PM
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Mike Leary Mike Leary is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1idejim View Post
I believe that having a third party test removes any doubts. Since i am of the minority i will stfu.
Why trust a third party that may be screwing the test up? Jezz, is there no honesty anymore? Most testers (including myself) would have never faked a test, but it's happened. I know how to read a test report, and that's the only way I'd sub it out: approve the test before the sub is paid, and turn him in to the State if I found a fraudulent test. Believe me, getting a backflow ticket is not an easy gig; only fools cheat, and their ticket (and their plumber's license, if applicable) should be pulled, forever. Backflow rant over.
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  #23  
Old 11-09-2012, 06:49 PM
txirrigation txirrigation is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Leary View Post
Why trust a third party that may be screwing the test up? Jezz, is there no honesty anymore? Most testers (including myself) would have never faked a test, but it's happened. I know how to read a test report, and that's the only way I'd sub it out: approve the test before the sub is paid, and turn him in to the State if I found a fraudulent test. Believe me, getting a backflow ticket is not an easy gig; only fools cheat, and their ticket (and their plumber's license, if applicable) should be pulled, forever. Backflow rant over.
Here is the reason why:

Here is the scenario:

I install a system for Joe, and Joe has a three year old daughter. This girl ends up sick a month or two after the installation and dies. (Extreme I know) The Doc determines she ingested some kind of foreign bacteria, Amoeba, (whatever), and says the source could be dirty water.

Joe then remembers me installing the system and telling him the back flow device protects potable water. He then calls the city and they send the village idiot out to test and inspect my valve. Over the course of the month or two the valve failed (for some reason) and tests bad. Then Joe finds out I tested my own valve and passes that little nugget of info over to his lawyer.

Joe's Lawyer then contacts me to provide tangible evidence that I had in fact tested the valve and not forged the paper work to save time. And if I cannot produce anything he will be taking me to court.

Because I cheaped out and did not hire a third party I am SOL. I will be sued as the BIG BAD CONTRACTOR that killed a little girl to forgo the $45 to get an independent inspection which would have found that "for certain this valve was good from the beginning."

I then am on the first bus to jail leaving my Daughter and Wife to fend for themselves, even though I did honestly test the valve and it was good at the time of installation.


-OR-

All of what is stated above happens.... but instead of me getting screwed....

I point the finger at the guy that tested the valve. Who then can stand up in court and say "I was hired to independently test the back flow valve and at the time of installation it tested good. The evidence I was there is in the fact that I left a test report fixed to the back flow valve after it was installed."

We (The BPAT and I) then go on our marry way, and the Parents of the child find out it was the water in the nasty pond they swam in last week.



I know this was extreme, but even if the little girl just got really sick I still would have been screwed. I pay the extra money to prove the valve is good. I know for a fact that there are some outfits around that fill out the paperwork at the office, stick it in the BF box and tell the tech to put it in with the back flow. I pay the money, because I do not have the time to drive around to 8-12 locations a week to test all of the valves we install. Purely the fact that we have installed 4-6,000 valves in the past years means something crazy is bound to happen one day. Hell, McDonalds paid out millions because a lady spilled hot coffee in her lap. Ralf Nadar won a case for a guy because he stuck his hand under a running mower and cut his fingers off, hence the sticker on all mowers now.

Last edited by txirrigation; 11-09-2012 at 06:56 PM.
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  #24  
Old 11-09-2012, 09:41 PM
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Sprinkus Sprinkus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1idejim View Post
Since i am of the minority i will stfu.
Unacceptable, and I think you of all people know why.
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  #25  
Old 11-09-2012, 10:00 PM
bcg bcg is online now
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McDonald's lost that case because they made a decision at the management level to keep their coffee at a temperature that they knew would cause 3rd degree burns in order to minimize the number of free refills customers got. There were internal memos that identified the potential for someone to be seriously injured long before the woman actually was and they chose to continue the practice, that is willful negligence and they deserved to lose.

I don't know the details on the mower case.

If I fill out a T&M and leave it with the valve for a final inspection by the purveyor then I'm covered. If it was good enough for the purveyor, then it's good enough. In order to win a civil case they'd have to prove that the irrigation system contaminated the water and there would be no criminal liability in the hypothetical you described unless they could prove that you faked the report. It's innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around so you don't need to prove you did it, they need to prove you didn't.
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  #26  
Old 11-09-2012, 10:18 PM
txirrigation txirrigation is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcg View Post
McDonald's lost that case because they made a decision at the management level to keep their coffee at a temperature that they knew would cause 3rd degree burns in order to minimize the number of free refills customers got. There were internal memos that identified the potential for someone to be seriously injured long before the woman actually was and they chose to continue the practice, that is willful negligence and they deserved to lose.

I don't know the details on the mower case.

If I fill out a T&M and leave it with the valve for a final inspection by the purveyor then I'm covered. If it was good enough for the purveyor, then it's good enough. In order to win a civil case they'd have to prove that the irrigation system contaminated the water and there would be no criminal liability in the hypothetical you described unless they could prove that you faked the report. It's innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around so you don't need to prove you did it, they need to prove you didn't.
2 months ago I got sued because a lady was texting and rear ended one of my install trucks.

I won the case, but it cost me almost 10k in lawyer fees. Doesn't matter if your right or wrong, fact is, they see a "big company," and they are going to take a shot at it.

The lawyer looked up my tax records, and found out how much I make. He also looked up all the property and trucks I own outright, I guess he figured he could get his hands on it. I tried to get my attorney fees back, but the lady is broke, no chance, and I will waste more money trying to get it.

Fact is this:

I find a little bit of stress relief in thinking that one day it will save my tail. So I will continue to pay $45 a system for piece of mind.
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  #27  
Old 11-09-2012, 10:26 PM
Weekend cut easymoney Weekend cut easymoney is offline
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Liability insurance....and workers comp....expensive, but peace of mind
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  #28  
Old 11-09-2012, 11:04 PM
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grassman177 grassman177 is offline
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I agree on testing, but want to get into it myself.......so I can't test the ones I install morally? That would defeat the purpose! Im stuck
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  #29  
Old 11-09-2012, 11:14 PM
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cjohn2000 cjohn2000 is offline
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Originally Posted by grassman177 View Post
I agree on testing, but want to get into it myself.......so I can't test the ones I install morally? That would defeat the purpose! Im stuck
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I would like to bring backflow testing inhouse and be able to promote testing. What the greater good? Lesser of two evils?
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  #30  
Old 11-10-2012, 12:07 AM
txirrigation txirrigation is offline
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Originally Posted by Weekend cut easymoney View Post
Liability insurance....and workers comp....expensive, but peace of mind
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I have both, trust me, you will still get sued. I have workers comp, liability, umbrella, and a lawyer that checks everything yearly to make sure I have separated my personal from business. Sadly, the lawyer says some how some way I am still screwed.
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