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  #31  
Old 11-10-2012, 07:49 AM
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grassman177 grassman177 is offline
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that is reassuring isnt it
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all is fair in love and grass! Man, it smells like sheet, do you smell that!!
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  #32  
Old 11-10-2012, 10:38 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txirrigation View Post
Here is the reason why:

Here is the scenario:

I install a system for Joe, and Joe has a three year old daughter. This girl ends up sick a month or two after the installation and dies. (Extreme I know) The Doc determines she ingested some kind of foreign bacteria, Amoeba, (whatever), and says the source could be dirty water.

Joe then remembers me installing the system and telling him the back flow device protects potable water. He then calls the city and they send the village idiot out to test and inspect my valve. Over the course of the month or two the valve failed (for some reason) and tests bad. Then Joe finds out I tested my own valve and passes that little nugget of info over to his lawyer.

Joe's Lawyer then contacts me to provide tangible evidence that I had in fact tested the valve and not forged the paper work to save time. And if I cannot produce anything he will be taking me to court.

Because I cheaped out and did not hire a third party I am SOL. I will be sued as the BIG BAD CONTRACTOR that killed a little girl to forgo the $45 to get an independent inspection which would have found that "for certain this valve was good from the beginning."

I then am on the first bus to jail leaving my Daughter and Wife to fend for themselves, even though I did honestly test the valve and it was good at the time of installation.


-OR-

All of what is stated above happens.... but instead of me getting screwed....

I point the finger at the guy that tested the valve. Who then can stand up in court and say "I was hired to independently test the back flow valve and at the time of installation it tested good. The evidence I was there is in the fact that I left a test report fixed to the back flow valve after it was installed."

We (The BPAT and I) then go on our marry way, and the Parents of the child find out it was the water in the nasty pond they swam in last week.



I know this was extreme, but even if the little girl just got really sick I still would have been screwed. I pay the extra money to prove the valve is good. I know for a fact that there are some outfits around that fill out the paperwork at the office, stick it in the BF box and tell the tech to put it in with the back flow. I pay the money, because I do not have the time to drive around to 8-12 locations a week to test all of the valves we install. Purely the fact that we have installed 4-6,000 valves in the past years means something crazy is bound to happen one day. Hell, McDonalds paid out millions because a lady spilled hot coffee in her lap. Ralf Nadar won a case for a guy because he stuck his hand under a running mower and cut his fingers off, hence the sticker on all mowers now.

Or ....

You sub out the BF test, the BF fails sometime later, systems gets contaminated because of irrigation system was installed poorly, you still get sued because you not only subbed out the BF test, but you also get sued for the work that caused the BF incident.

Moral of this story is ...... if someone wants to sue you they will, regardless if a good reason or not exists. If you are afraid of getting sued, then you shouldn't be doing work that opens yourself up to legal action (i.e. working with potable water supplies).

Oh, and the only time I think you should sub it out is when the unit is initially installed. That said, just because you subbed it out doesn't mean you aren't still on the hook if something goes wrong.
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  #33  
Old 11-10-2012, 10:46 AM
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Mike Leary Mike Leary is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjohn2000 View Post
I would like to bring backflow testing inhouse and be able to promote testing. What the greater good? Lesser of two evils?
I never got sued, never had a problem with testing not only my own installs, but was also the "A" list for the water purveyors in my market. Off course, I had one of these:

www.watts.com/pages/_products_details.asp?pid=907
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  #34  
Old 11-10-2012, 01:11 PM
txirrigation txirrigation is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Or ....

You sub out the BF test, the BF fails sometime later, systems gets contaminated because of irrigation system was installed poorly, you still get sued because you not only subbed out the BF test, but you also get sued for the work that caused the BF incident.

Moral of this story is ...... if someone wants to sue you they will, regardless if a good reason or not exists. If you are afraid of getting sued, then you shouldn't be doing work that opens yourself up to legal action (i.e. working with potable water supplies).

Oh, and the only time I think you should sub it out is when the unit is initially installed. That said, just because you subbed it out doesn't mean you aren't still on the hook if something goes wrong.
All we do is new installs, and repair our systems. We hire a third party to test our new installations. If a customer calls for a yearly inspection and the valve is out of warranty I go and test it. This is because the conflict of interest is over, if it tests bad the customer has to pay me to install a new one. The conflict of interest in testing a newly installed valve is that I will loose money by failing a valve, which I then have to dig up and replace for free.

Maybe a part of this is regional, because cutting out an above ground BF is very easy. Cutting out a DCVA that is 12" deep and plumbed in with pvc, is a whole different story. Instead of a 30 min replacement your talking 2 hours, and a huge hole. All of a sudden that valve on the edge of passing looks pretty good.
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  #35  
Old 11-10-2012, 01:56 PM
SoCalLandscapeMgmt SoCalLandscapeMgmt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txirrigation View Post
I have both, trust me, you will still get sued. I have workers comp, liability, umbrella, and a lawyer that checks everything yearly to make sure I have separated my personal from business. Sadly, the lawyer says some how some way I am still screwed.
you need some Directors and Officers Insurance! This way they can't come after you if you're the president of your corp (assuming that your company is a corp). D&O went way up this year in CA. Ours went from $6K to over $12K... lots of losses for the insurance companies in CA I guess.
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  #36  
Old 11-10-2012, 02:13 PM
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Mike Leary Mike Leary is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txirrigation View Post
All of a sudden that valve on the edge of passing looks pretty good.
If I saw a lowering p.s.i.d. from last year, the checks got replaced, as well as the relief, if it was an R.P. I only had to remove a couple of deep assemblies because of cracked seats. They were premise isolation and there was nothing I could do, especially since the "plumbers" installed them and never figured on a need for insulation, or they were simply a factory defect.
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  #37  
Old 11-10-2012, 02:22 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txirrigation View Post
Maybe a part of this is regional, because cutting out an above ground BF is very easy. Cutting out a DCVA that is 12" deep and plumbed in with pvc, is a whole different story. Instead of a 30 min replacement your talking 2 hours, and a huge hole. All of a sudden that valve on the edge of passing looks pretty good.
Well, close enough is NOT good enough, especially in the case of a BF, and if you or anyone else thinks it is, then you deserve to be sued. Further, WTF are you doing burying a new check before you test it.

A properly installed check should take just as long to pull and replace as any other BF, be it above or below ground.
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  #38  
Old 11-10-2012, 02:29 PM
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Mike Leary Mike Leary is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Well, close enough is NOT good enough, especially in the case of a BF, and if you or anyone else thinks it is, then you deserve to be sued. Further, WTF are you doing burying a new check before you test it.

A properly installed check should take just as long to pull and replace as any other BF, be it above or below ground.
Agreed. We carried checks, retainers, etc. for Febco and Watts, we would not service any other brands. We spec'd unions on both ends so both checks could easily be serviced. Jerks who don't take backflow seriously should not even consider the trade and leave it to people who have a sense of commitment to community health.
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  #39  
Old 11-10-2012, 03:37 PM
txirrigation txirrigation is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Well, close enough is NOT good enough, especially in the case of a BF, and if you or anyone else thinks it is, then you deserve to be sued. Further, WTF are you doing burying a new check before you test it.

A properly installed check should take just as long to pull and replace as any other BF, be it above or below ground.
We do not burry them directly, they are in a box. Regardless the valve has to be installed before it is tested. I do not think you understand the logistics of the volume installers. I am not there patiently waiting for the moment the valve is installed. Thes tester comes 1-2 days after installation.

I am not saying "close enough" is good enough for me. What I am saying is that another company many see it as good enough.
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  #40  
Old 11-10-2012, 03:56 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txirrigation View Post
We do not burry them directly, they are in a box. Regardless the valve has to be installed before it is tested. I do not think you understand the logistics of the volume installers. I am not there patiently waiting for the moment the valve is installed. Thes tester comes 1-2 days after installation.
You are right .... I don't understand the mentality of slapping it together with some rubber bands and duct tape and collecting your money as fast a you can before anything breaks.
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