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  #91  
Old 11-21-2012, 08:54 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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I strive to understand what the plant needs and when it needs it... I'd like to know why N is good in warm soils and just how badly it is wasted in cool soils...

You do realize that what NJ gov't says today,,, and what you did yesterday,,, has no bearing on the reality of what soils do as they feed the plantlife,,, right???

I think it may be imperative to analyse the OSU article so that we are not basing our understanding of botany on NJ politicians, and the" way we've always done it", routine...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
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  #92  
Old 11-21-2012, 08:57 PM
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FYS777 FYS777 is offline
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[QUOTE=Smallaxe;4590054]That is the question we are discussing... when can the roots take it up in the cool soils of Fall and also Spring...


This is the very point... :WHEN: ground temp with grass type, going into fall and going into spring. when does it stop taking it up, and when does it start taking it up.


when do you apply before it stops, and when to apply when it starts. depends in which part of the country as well. ever place is different in some way.
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  #93  
Old 11-22-2012, 11:35 AM
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heritage heritage is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
I strive to understand what the plant needs and when it needs it... I'd like to know why N is good in warm soils and just how badly it is wasted in cool soils...

You do realize that what NJ gov't says today,,, and what you did yesterday,,, has no bearing on the reality of what soils do as they feed the plantlife,,, right???

I think it may be imperative to analyse the OSU article so that we are not basing our understanding of botany on NJ politicians, and the" way we've always done it", routine...
I AGREE with the New Jersey Law and I think it was a HUGE step in the right direction.

Timing IS everything from my expereance with cool season grass types.


The minimum dosage that gives a response, at the proper timing is on the left side of my bell curve and heavy applications once recommended by Universities
are on the right side of the bell curve. Find something in the middle and scale down from there, till you find what works for you.

You can also use a bell curve with growth in your area, with your grass types. Too early or too late is not as efficient I would guess.

Just use some common sense.
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  #94  
Old 11-23-2012, 09:38 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heritage View Post
I AGREE with the New Jersey Law and I think it was a HUGE step in the right direction.

Timing IS everything from my expereance with cool season grass types.


The minimum dosage that gives a response, at the proper timing is on the left side of my bell curve and heavy applications once recommended by Universities
are on the right side of the bell curve. Find something in the middle and scale down from there, till you find what works for you.

You can also use a bell curve with growth in your area, with your grass types. Too early or too late is not as efficient I would guess.

Just use some common sense.
The purpose of an article, is to disuss what the article says... I already know that you believe what you're saying, but that is not the discussion point... We also agree that what Uni. said years ago, may not be the whole picture and that the article in question, is trying to fill in more pieces of the puzzle...

I posted the other article now on a different thread, but lonely boy has already lashed out with sophomoric reason and elemtentary mocking techniques to derail it...

Our understanding of Botany, loses bigtime in this forum...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #95  
Old 11-23-2012, 11:07 AM
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heritage heritage is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
The purpose of an article, is to disuss what the article says... I already know that you believe what you're saying, but that is not the discussion point... We also agree that what Uni. said years ago, may not be the whole picture and that the article in question, is trying to fill in more pieces of the puzzle...

I posted the other article now on a different thread, but lonely boy has already lashed out with sophomoric reason and elemtentary mocking techniques to derail it...

Our understanding of Botany, loses bigtime in this forum...
Smallaxe,

Re-post the article you would like to discuss and I will have a read.
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  #96  
Old 11-23-2012, 07:38 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Here you go...

http://turfdisease.osu.edu/turf-dise...-fertilization
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #97  
Old 11-24-2012, 12:19 PM
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heritage heritage is offline
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Gave it a read and it is more detailed than what I read from Penn State and Rutgers some years ago.

How we approach the May Nitrogen application following the Late season fertilization program season may change a bit more for 2013.

Was using 1/2 Lb of N but may cut back to 1/4 lb N, and keep K at 1/2 lb, depending on soil type and soil tests.

My concern with N in May is Brown Patch is right around the corner, and I cannot control the weather.

Would be nice if OSU would write a paper, discussing a "Plan" to follow late season fertilization with some "Strategies" for Spring rates of N as well as Macros P, K and S.

I did not see any discussion with the Late Season Fertilization paper by OSU, on the Benefits of Potassium with the Late season Plan, extending the storage of Carbohydrates with keeping the grass greener longer and helping ward off problems with Snow Mold.

More to learn.

Thanks for the article
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  #98  
Old 11-24-2012, 02:00 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heritage View Post
Gave it a read and it is more detailed than what I read from Penn State and Rutgers some years ago.

How we approach the May Nitrogen application following the Late season fertilization program season may change a bit more for 2013.

Was using 1/2 Lb of N but may cut back to 1/4 lb N, and keep K at 1/2 lb, depending on soil type and soil tests.

My concern with N in May is Brown Patch is right around the corner, and I cannot control the weather.

Would be nice if OSU would write a paper, discussing a "Plan" to follow late season fertilization with some "Strategies" for Spring rates of N as well as Macros P, K and S.

I did not see any discussion with the Late Season Fertilization paper by OSU, on the Benefits of Potassium with the Late season Plan, extending the storage of Carbohydrates with keeping the grass greener longer and helping ward off problems with Snow Mold.

More to learn.

Thanks for the article
This is the summary at the end of the article and perhaps the thing to do would be to reflect back into the research and see where these claims have merit and where they are deficient...

... "Late-season fertilization lengthens the fall/winter green period and enhances the rate of spring green-up without stimulating excessive shoot growth, thus allowing the turf plant to maintain higher levels of carbohydrates than when spring/summer fertilization is used. This provides both aesthetic and physiological benefits to the plant and customer/client. Nitrogen applied during early spring increases shoot growth rates and decreases the levels of available carbohydrates in the plant, resulting in depressed root growth rates. Late-season nitrogen applications have no similar negative effects on root growth and, in fact, increase root growth during mid winter to early spring. Better carbohydrate storage and root growth ultimately result in a more stress tolerant turfgrass plant during stress periods. No winter damage or snow mold injury occurred as a result of late-season nitrogen applications in OSU research. ..."

I look at this as an explanation as to "Why", the SpringTime natural growth is healthy versus the application of water soluable N to throw it off its normal development,...

What is it in the Summary that you don't agree with???
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #99  
Old 11-25-2012, 10:49 AM
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heritage heritage is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
This is the summary at the end of the article and perhaps the thing to do would be to reflect back into the research and see where these claims have merit and where they are deficient...

... "Late-season fertilization lengthens the fall/winter green period and enhances the rate of spring green-up without stimulating excessive shoot growth, thus allowing the turf plant to maintain higher levels of carbohydrates than when spring/summer fertilization is used. This provides both aesthetic and physiological benefits to the plant and customer/client. Nitrogen applied during early spring increases shoot growth rates and decreases the levels of available carbohydrates in the plant, resulting in depressed root growth rates. Late-season nitrogen applications have no similar negative effects on root growth and, in fact, increase root growth during mid winter to early spring. Better carbohydrate storage and root growth ultimately result in a more stress tolerant turfgrass plant during stress periods. No winter damage or snow mold injury occurred as a result of late-season nitrogen applications in OSU research. ..."

I look at this as an explanation as to "Why", the SpringTime natural growth is healthy versus the application of water soluable N to throw it off its normal development,...

What is it in the Summary that you don't agree with???
Smallaxe,

I agree with all but the part about snow mold. It's only from my experience though that when we have more fall rainfall here, more Potassium is lost and on the low end of sufficiency for healthy turf/roots/storage. Then I saw more snow mold issues as a result.

Penn State and Rutgers talked about 2/3rds of the annual Nitrogen to be applied in the 2 fall apps......1 lb when temps cool off and cool season grass is out of summer dormancy and sufficient available water, and then the late season application that was 1- 1.5 lbs N depending on the annual turf "total input". KB needs more than PR, Fescue or TTTF. You just did the math, and adjusted rate accordingly.

In the University studies about late season Nitrogen, I do not recall discussion of "test plots" Essential Macro nutrient levels of P,K,S in Low-Med and High ranges, and the different effects had on turf WITH the Late Season Nitrogen applications. I think in the "Test Plot" world (enough Ca,Mg,P,K,S) in a soil with good CEC and not too much water/leeching, just Late Season Nitrogen would not pose a snow mold issue.

Some Professors input(s) to our findings would be helpful in this thread.
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  #100  
Old 11-26-2012, 09:01 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heritage View Post
Smallaxe,

I agree with all but the part about snow mold. It's only from my experience though that when we have more fall rainfall here, more Potassium is lost and on the low end of sufficiency for healthy turf/roots/storage. Then I saw more snow mold issues as a result.

Penn State and Rutgers talked about 2/3rds of the annual Nitrogen to be applied in the 2 fall apps......1 lb when temps cool off and cool season grass is out of summer dormancy and sufficient available water, and then the late season application that was 1- 1.5 lbs N depending on the annual turf "total input". KB needs more than PR, Fescue or TTTF. You just did the math, and adjusted rate accordingly.

In the University studies about late season Nitrogen, I do not recall discussion of "test plots" Essential Macro nutrient levels of P,K,S in Low-Med and High ranges, and the different effects had on turf WITH the Late Season Nitrogen applications. I think in the "Test Plot" world (enough Ca,Mg,P,K,S) in a soil with good CEC and not too much water/leeching, just Late Season Nitrogen would not pose a snow mold issue.

Some Professors input(s) to our findings would be helpful in this thread.
What you are asking for, is to know everything at once... you want some one to give you the whole puzzle, already completed, only then will you accept the information that was researched in part... research can only be done in part, becuz the more factors that interfere the greater the risk contaminating the data...
The details of the soil and the cause of snow mold can all be worked out later once an understanding of the correct life processes of the plants are understood...

The following paragragh, is "The Professor" telling you about fall fertilizing strategy and what to expect, based on what they have found... When translated from OSU to CentoWisco, those stated months = Aug 15th for the first app(instead of waiting for Sept) and specifically before Oct. 15th(as opposed to the Oct., Nov., Dec. listed in the article)...

"... Turf fertilized in September and again during October, November, or December (northern, central and southern Ohio, respectively) is generally shown to possess better fall and winter color than a turf which was not fertilized at that time (1-4). In addition, signs of spring green-up have been shown to occur two to six weeks earlier if the turf has been fertilized during the previous fall. Most importantly, the enhanced rate of spring greening is realized without stimulating excessive shoot growth that accompanies the early spring nitrogen applications called for in most turf fertility programs. This can help homeowners and clients avoid the “spring mowing nightmares caused by very rapidly (easily resulting in the breaking of the 1/3 mowing rule). "

I don't know if they've actually used "Test Plots" per se , but it seems as though they had plenty of comparison plots...

The next logical move, once this paragragh is understood would be understanding WHY these observations were observed...

Why,,, did the grass maintain Fall color with the second fall app???

Why,,, did the turf "Green Up" 2 weeks earlier in the Spring???

Why,,, did the grass green up, but not excessively grow???
and Did this result change IF,,, there was a "Winter App" applied as referenced in the opening of the article???

I want to commend you on following through as far as you have, in studying this article as far as it has gone... I think this is the first time that the contents of an article has ever been looked at this closely, in years... usually 'the Disrupter' has already come in and trashed real discussion, mocking the participants until they leave, to prevent going deeper into the understanding of what is being read...

Anyways, thanks for hanging in there, it is a pleasure chatting with you...
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,,, I wonder what does...
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