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  #21  
Old 01-23-2013, 12:40 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
I didn't say that soil structure doesn't influence what you listed (though there are a couple of exceptions). Please read my post.
I did ....
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Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
It sounds like you're talking more about soil texture and bulk density than about structure.

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Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
Understand that soil structure (by definition) only impacts preferrential flow -- macropore flow. Water holding capacity is not influenced as much by soil structure (as long as pore space is available), since structured soils channel water away from peds. Infiltration, some gas exchange (though not all) and some root depth (though not all) are influenced by structure.
There are exceptions to everything, and I disagree soil structure only impacts preferential flow. Understand that soil structure "by definition" states nothing about preferential flow nor can one derive potential water flow characteristics from the definition.
The combination or arrangement of primary soil particles into secondary units or peds. The secondary units are characterized on the basis of size, shape, and grade (degree of distinctness).
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It seems like you guys are hung up on minutia and are missing the main points.
You stated soil structure is not important in turf, and I disagreed. That was followed with some research on your part and realization that soil structure is indeed important. So I guess thanks for clearing up your previously erroneous statement.
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  #22  
Old 01-23-2013, 12:54 PM
Skipster Skipster is online now
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Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
You stated soil structure is not important in turf
Incorrect.

I said that soil structure is not *THAT* important in turf -- meaning that soil structure has less impact on turf management than many other factors. Nothing is erroneous and nothing has been backtracked.

But, I'll take that as an apology for you not understanding the role of soil structure in turfgrass systems.

Apology accepted.
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  #23  
Old 01-23-2013, 01:45 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
Incorrect.

I said that soil structure is not *THAT* important in turf -- meaning that soil structure has less impact on turf management than many other factors. Nothing is erroneous and nothing has been backtracked.
Actually you said .....
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Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
Soil structure isn't that important to growing a lawn, unless th esoil is a structureless solid mass.
I think it is quite clear what the statement says .... but then I suppose you will want to argue that soil structure isn't "that" important by listing the specific management differences between a "structureless solid mass" and a well structured soil. Perhaps you will choose specific essentially irrelevant examples in an attempt to justify your statement.

Or, you might start with discussing impacts (or lack thereof) on soil and plant health, with specific reference to soil fauna and their impact on soil formation. You could also discuss impacts (or lack thereof) on irrigation & water management, soil fertility & nutrient management, and pest management. Certainly if you can show little to no impact on these factors as a result of differences in soil structure then you might begin to demonstrate how soil structure is not "that" important. I wish you luck.

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Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
But, I'll take that as an apology for you not understanding the role of soil structure in turfgrass systems.
Hmmmm .... projecting.

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Apology accepted.
Yes, I do accept your apology.
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  #24  
Old 01-24-2013, 09:11 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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This was a very simple and succinct description of soil texture and how soil is built from molecules to visible granular structures... but one guy has a different article to post, rather than intelligently engage in discussion to help 'understanding' of the material presented... another guy diverts discussion in another direction about the article relating to agriculture... soil texture is soil texture and soil structure is soil structure, whether it is ag. or lawn, but being condescending and insulting seems to be the most important theme of the thread... now there is some nonsensical childish arguement going on,,, that no one cares about...

However, overall the mission of killing the thread was accomplished... the next time a question could've been answered by looking at the soil, it will be ignored, becuz there is still no concept of why the soil is important... the answer may be cinch bugs...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #25  
Old 01-24-2013, 04:03 PM
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kennc38 kennc38 is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
This was a very simple and succinct description of soil texture and how soil is built from molecules to visible granular structures... but one guy has a different article to post, rather than intelligently engage in discussion to help 'understanding' of the material presented... another guy diverts discussion in another direction about the article relating to agriculture... soil texture is soil texture and soil structure is soil structure, whether it is ag. or lawn, but being condescending and insulting seems to be the most important theme of the thread... now there is some nonsensical childish arguement going on,,, that no one cares about...

However, overall the mission of killing the thread was accomplished... the next time a question could've been answered by looking at the soil, it will be ignored, becuz there is still no concept of why the soil is important... the answer may be cinch bugs...
No offense Smalls, but once again the question, point or whatever else you were trying to make was not "succinct" and was not about "soil texture", but about "soil structure". If you want a simple, straightforward discussion on a topic, then I would suggest presenting the question and/or material in the same manner. I quote your "succinct" introduction before anybody else even commented:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
The biggest problem with irrigation on soil health, is usually the problems with clay platelets...
Here is the best little introduction to Soil Structure I've ever come across...
Short, simple and yet very insightful...


http://soils.missouri.edu/tutorial/page9.asp
"... Air, water and plant roots can penetrate deeper in the soil; this can be important to plant survival during times of drought. The larger voids serve as short-term storage space for water, easily accessed by plants.

... Aggregation begins with flocculation of clay particles (platelets) into microscopic clumps called floccules; the cations that are caught between two platelets attract the negative charges on both platelets, binding them together.

... The polyvalent cations (including Ca2+, Fe3+ and Al3+) may also attract and bind with hydrophobic (water repelling) humus molecules allowing them to bind to clay surfaces. These clay-humus particles bind with each other and with grains of silt to form the smallest of the primary aggregates, perhaps as small as 0.01 mm. ...

Notice what they say here about the heaving/shrinking, wetting/drying and freeze/thaw...
"... As a soil dries out, the clay platelets move closer together and cause shrinking in soil volume. Cracks will form along tiny zones of weakness, and over the course of several wet/dry cycles this network of cracks becomes better defined. Plant roots, as they repeatedly remove water from the same vicinity, reinforce a drying pattern and contribute to physical aggregation of the soil. The process of freezing and thawing in the soil also contributes to the drying process as ice crystals form. And shrinking and swelling that results from wet-dry and freeze-thaw cycles creates tiny cracks or fissures (shrinking) and pressure (swelling) that break apart structureless masses of clay to eventually form soil peds or aggregates."
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
This article also covers,,, Human Activity,,, and its sometimes positive and sometimes negative impact on soils:

"... Additions of fertilizer to agricultural land can have a positive effect on soil structure. By increasing plant growth and quality, roots help with stability of soil aggregates. Applications of liming material (high in calcium, a key player in flocculation) encourage better structure and tilth. Organic materials in the form of plant residue or animal manure quickly decompose and participate in the development of soil aggregates, and also provide favorable conditions for microorganisms. ...

"... Conservation tillage practices have greater benefits to the soil than conventional tillage. Under conservation practices, the need for tillage is minimized and plant residues are left on or near the soil surface. Conventional tillage requires more frequent tilling. A primary pass is made to turn plant residue several inches below the surface. This is followed by secondary tillage operations such as harrowing, which kills weeds and breaks up clods prior to planting. After planting, the soil may again be tilled for weed control and to break up any crusting of the surface soil. These multiple passes can compact the soil and result in the formation of a “plow pan” and platy structure. The amount and size of pores will decrease in this zone with concomitant air and water movement. With decreased rates of infiltration, surface runoff and soil erosion become issues. Plant roots have greater difficulty penetrating the platy structure and compacted soil, and limited rooting depth can affect plant survival. ...

An important point of destruction of soil structure is understanding the last sentence in the paragraph:

"... Irrigation, if not properly applied, can compound this problem by breaking up aggregates, increasing sodium content, and leaching clay. "
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
"... Many types or shapes of structure occur in soils. Other soils have no true structure and are called structureless. Certain deposits, for example sands in a sand dune, are called single grain because there is little to no attraction between sand grains. On the other textural extreme, some clay soils occur as large cohesive masses and are termed massive in structure. Many soils, however, will exhibit definite and repeatable shapes that we can describe with four general categories."
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Based on the idea of excellent lawn care, or bedcare for that matter,,, I expect there is a way of doing things better than the way it is being done now...
I find Strong Granular Structures under mulch in the flower beds and I find moderate granular structures in a moist but not over watered lawn when I look under the lawn debris...
I find Platy structures of bare dirt lawns that recieve irrigation that appears to be in excess...
My point to all of this is to help LCOs, interestted in excellent lawns to achieve the excellent soil necessaryto get there...

Enjoy...
"... Grade describes the distinctness of the structure, and is combined with the cohesion of the soil within units compared to the adhesion between individual units. Terms that are used for grade are weak, moderate and strong.

If the structural grade is weak, aggregates are barely observable in the soil profile.

With moderate grade the structural units are well formed and easily distinguished in the soil profile. When disturbed, the aggregates part into a mixture of mostly whole units, some broken units, and some material that is not in structural units. Individual peds will part from adjoining peds somewhat cleanly.

When grade is described as strong the structural units are clearly seen in the profile and shape is easily identified. Peds separate cleanly from other peds and retain their shape when disturbed by shaking. ..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
"Soil structure is the second most influential characteristic, after texture, in determining the behavior or any given soil. Soils with similar characteristics (vegetation, climate, texture, and depth) but different structure will react differently under similar conditions. Structure influences water infiltration, building site development and growth of plants. When combined with soil texture, structure influences the distribution of soil solids and pore space (called the soil bulk density). ..."

Vegetation, climate, texture, and depth may all be things that are equal,,, but becuz the "Structure" is different, that makes EVERYTHING different...

Funny how that is NOT important on a Professional Lawn/Landscaping Forum... We can't understand why we have some of the problems we have for that very reason... we can't discuss microbials or soil health, intelligently for that very reason... One thing we do very well however, is condescend to someone we don't like and express how dismayed we are that he/she is so unable to understand... or just call them ignorant...

I'm not talking down to anyone,,, just curious if soil structure matters to anyone one this forum...
WHY? ...or... WHY NOT???
Again, not a "succinct" question. You opened yourself up to opinion and not factual evidence.
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  #26  
Old 01-25-2013, 05:55 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Originally Posted by kennc38 View Post
No offense Smalls, but once again the question, point or whatever else you were trying to make was not "succinct" and was not about "soil texture", but about "soil structure". If you want a simple, straightforward discussion on a topic, then I would suggest presenting the question and/or material in the same manner. I quote your "succinct" introduction before anybody else even commented...Again, not a "succinct" question. You opened yourself up to opinion and not factual evidence.
I didn't have any questions about the article, but I found it informative and easy to understand so I knew it would be useful as information... Mr. 'A' posted 3 more 'urls' and didn't even put out relevant inserts that might be interesting... Mr. 'B' come in with snotty comments in every sentence becuz soil structure and even texture in this article doesn't apply to lawns becuz it was written by agri-science...
I didn't really expect any commentary for the post but rather put it out there so that LCOs could understand that physically handling and observing the soil, IS a useful thing to do... a diagnostic tool that would elevate conversation beyond the meaningless chatter of the past couple of days... I find that those who mock really can't grasp the full meaning of what is being presented and rather than have discussion that might help them understand they go off on personal attacks...
If you want to join forces with the mockers to attack me, don't waste your time,becuz the information I presented is the brainchild of a university, so go mock them... you're not interested and you believe that ALL lawn problems have NOTHING to do with soil texture or structure, then you go along at that level, but don't bother mocking me or information about soils... BTW the article also defined soil texture, just to be sure that everyone was on the same page... why did you miss that???
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #27  
Old 01-25-2013, 06:06 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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If a question is necessary for each newlyposted thread ,,, how about this:

Does good soil structure, allowing good perculation AND assuming "Proper Irrigation" less likely to have "Fungal Disease" than soils that do NOT have good perculation becuz of poor structure, even though the irrigation practices on both are equal???
Why or why not???

A comment like "Too many factors to know" is an unacceptable response, in fact is a coppout, and only used to demean the person asking the question... this situation is ALWAYS predictable... prove me wrong...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #28  
Old 01-25-2013, 06:43 AM
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kennc38 kennc38 is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
I didn't have any questions about the article, but I found it informative and easy to understand so I knew it would be useful as information... If you want to join forces with the mockers to attack me, don't waste your time,becuz the information I presented is the brainchild of a university, so go mock them...
First, you did post an open-ended question on your last post as shown below (see below), which probably explains why you received the posts you did and why everyone went in so many different directions.

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[b][color="darkredI'm not talking down to anyone,,, just curious if soil structure matters to anyone one this forum...
WHY? ...or... WHY NOT???
Second, I am not mocking you. I simply poined to the fact that your initial post(s) were not succinct as you suggested and that whatever point you were trying to make was not exactly clear. Again, no offense, but you still haven't figured out how to effectively communicate your questions, your points, or whatever else you try to make on this forum and I have politely tried to communicate this to you in the past.

Third, I never commented on the technical content of the university studies or on your opinions on the topic(s), so please don't throw me into the group of people that are supposedly "mocking you".
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  #29  
Old 01-25-2013, 07:47 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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I'm not talking down to anyone,,, just curious if soil structure matters to anyone one this forum...
WHY? ...or... WHY NOT???


OK, you're not on the attack...

You should've noticed that the question was not open-ended and required a Yes or No response, with perhaps a brief comment, but comment wasn't necessary... did anyone even address the question you claim was open-ended??? did anyone even hint at a Y/N response???

Maybe I am a poor communicator and certainly don't claim to be anything better. in that regard,,, but I'm not sure just how the Highlighted Y/N part of my question was missed,,, other than being purposely IGNORED...
Thanks for being my friend...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #30  
Old 01-25-2013, 08:02 AM
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kennc38 kennc38 is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
I'm not talking down to anyone,,, just curious if soil structure matters to anyone one this forum...
WHY? ...or... WHY NOT???


You should've noticed that the question was not open-ended and required a Yes or No response, with perhaps a brief comment, but comment wasn't necessary... did anyone even address the question you claim was open-ended??? did anyone even hint at a Y/N response???

Maybe I am a poor communicator and certainly don't claim to be anything better. in that regard,,, but I'm not sure just how the Highlighted Y/N part of my question was missed,,, other than being purposely IGNORED...
Thanks for being my friend...
A "WHY?" or "WHY NOT?" question is not a YES or NO question and requires more than a single word to answer it, especially when prefaced with.."just curious if soil structure matters to anyone on this forum".

I copied your question exactly as you posted it. Where is the "Y/N part" of your question that I quoted above?
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