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  #21  
Old 02-04-2013, 06:19 PM
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heritage heritage is offline
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Originally Posted by phasthound View Post
I feel the same way as Joel does. It's amusing how conventional guys are starting to catch up with was long held in disdain by the industry and now are calling it "new".

BTW, Joel took a lot of grief when he was at Rutgers.
Good Barry....Me too.

Funny how often folks doing the right thing get Grief for it......

Keep it up sir.
  #22  
Old 02-04-2013, 06:34 PM
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heritage heritage is offline
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Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
I'm not sure I would put much stock into anything Joel Simmons has to say. His poor understanding of soils rendered him speechless when Dr. Schlossberg from Penn State pointed out that his attachment to BCSR was BS.

But, on a larger note, I don't think anyone posting on this thread adequately understands thatch. In lawn care, thatch isn't *that* big of a deal! I've seen some lawns over the years that were too thatchy, but those were few and far between. Remember, thatch can only be produced by an actively growing plant. If you have thin spots or poor growing conditions, you don't have thatch production!

Thatch management is a huge issue in intensively managed golf and athletic turf, but isn't much of an issue in lawns.
Hey Skipster you make some good points for discussion on base saturation......So I added this link so more can at least follow along

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base-ca...turation_ratio




I can say from my own personal experience, some years ago one of the companies I buy from put me in touch with Joel and I went to a seminar he was a part of with soilfirst.

Joel helped me to think outside of conventional thinking (Universities were still mostly Synthetic Minded @ that time) and I begin to use the Base Sat Methods way, with soil testing and prescriptive fertilization/soil treatments.

This only opened my eyes even more on how we care for plants the soil and the soil food web.

Do you agree with adding organic matter to poor soil and the C to N ratios in favor of soil/plant health?
  #23  
Old 02-04-2013, 06:34 PM
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phasthound phasthound is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
I'm not sure I would put much stock into anything Joel Simmons has to say. His poor understanding of soils rendered him speechless when Dr. Schlossberg from Penn State pointed out that his attachment to BCSR was BS.

But, on a larger note, I don't think anyone posting on this thread adequately understands thatch. In lawn care, thatch isn't *that* big of a deal! I've seen some lawns over the years that were too thatchy, but those were few and far between. Remember, thatch can only be produced by an actively growing plant. If you have thin spots or poor growing conditions, you don't have thatch production!

Thatch management is a huge issue in intensively managed golf and athletic turf, but isn't much of an issue in lawns.
I agree that thatch is not much of a problem in our area. Unfortunately, many LCO's see detatching as an additional source of income and up sell it to unsuspecting clients. When thatch is a problem, dethatching does nothing to correct the cause.


There is no doubt that base-cation saturation ratio & the Albrecht Method are controversial and it's proponents will always butt heads with conventional proponents. But I prefer to learn from many different sources and make up my own mind. Joel's understanding of soils is different than conventional, not poor. There is much to learn from both, and others.
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The nation that destroys its soil destroys itself.
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  #24  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:26 PM
lawn2012start lawn2012start is offline
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Originally Posted by heritage View Post

a little confusing to a person who isnt an expert....

you support the use of kelp and humic acid for soil?
  #25  
Old 02-05-2013, 07:58 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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It may be a little known fact that dumping ferts of any kind on the surface of the ground may do little or nothing for the root zone 2" below the surface... Developing the correct maintenance plan for the actual grass variety and its climate to accomplish it,,, is what is needed...

Maybe kelp, humic acids, and chicken poo is all any lawn needs,,, but how do those nutrients get down into the soil where roots might actually grow if the soil 2" deep had fertility and water???

If a lawn is muddy,,, it can certainly used a bit of soil structure to help it drain...
The BCSR on wiki uses the term soil fertility,,, but doesn't address soil structure either...
I get the feeling that soil structure and root development is seen only through the eyes of:
dumping some product onto the turf and it will magically be created... this is pretty lame for an "Organic" thread... no offense, just an honest opinion...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
  #26  
Old 02-05-2013, 08:49 AM
turfmd101 turfmd101 is offline
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I see St. Aug, growing along sidewalk cracks, developing roots ( long & health) right into the non soil cracks and as long as there is adequate moisture, it's growing and healthy in appearance. It can also do the same growing out into lake water visible under the surface. Good long roots, some green color and somewhat healthy.

In the end. These two scenarios allow St. Aug to have growth and color without soil. My only explanation is " this turfgrass is STRONG if left alone". The desire to exist brings life???
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  #27  
Old 02-05-2013, 10:19 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Originally Posted by turfmd101 View Post
I see St. Aug, growing along sidewalk cracks, developing roots ( long & health) right into the non soil cracks and as long as there is adequate moisture, it's growing and healthy in appearance. It can also do the same growing out into lake water visible under the surface. Good long roots, some green color and somewhat healthy.

In the end. These two scenarios allow St. Aug to have growth and color without soil. My only explanation is " this turfgrass is STRONG if left alone". The desire to exist brings life???
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Individual STRONG grass plants, surrounded by bare spots, and muddy thin areas is not what the goal is for turf...at least not for cool-seaon lawns... turf is a densely grown STRONG GROUP or TEAM, if you will...

I can't speak to SA, but when KBG turf has barespots and thin areas,,, there isn't a product dumped on the surface or into aeration holes,,, that is going to change that...

Barespots and thin areas are issues dealing directly with soil moisture/air ratio and structure... It is of primary importance to consider WHY these spots are bare in the first place, b4 you can fix it...

Barespots are for weeds and wedon't wanteither sowe fillin every square inch with grass...
__________________
*
Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
  #28  
Old 02-05-2013, 10:38 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by turfmd101 View Post
WATER WHEN WILT IS A EXPERIENCED MANAGED EVENT.
With all due respect, it is not. It is a tactic used when you have neither the tools or knowledge to manage irrigation correctly. If you are waiting until wilt to irrigation, you have waited too long.
  #29  
Old 02-05-2013, 10:47 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by phasthound View Post
There is no doubt that base-cation saturation ratio & the Albrecht Method are controversial and it's proponents will always butt heads with conventional proponents.
IMO, the best approach is a mixed BCSR and SLAN using sustainable methods on a site by site basis.
  #30  
Old 02-05-2013, 11:20 AM
turfmd101 turfmd101 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
With all due respect, it is not. It is a tactic used when you have neither the tools or knowledge to manage irrigation correctly. If you are waiting until wilt to irrigation, you have waited too long.
Just because you say so? So wilt is not a indication of lack of moisture. Then give an explanation of wilt. Beyond an obvious mechanical cause for wilt when you have a strong stand of turf. If waiting for wilt means you waited to long,,, means if you drink water when your not dehydrate or thirsty. I guess you just drink to drink? If you rely on man made technology to tell you when to eat or drink vs you showing signs. You are saying I can not tell you my requirement needs better than tools. Sounds like you require wilt causes education. In the end you are saying water before the signs of dehydration occur so to possibly overwater. Not trying to argue just trying to understand why your statement IS without explanation.
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