Soil Conditions Matter???

[Kiril]

Originally Posted by turfmd101

Just because you say so? So wilt is not a indication of lack of moisture. Then give an explanation of wilt. Beyond an obvious mechanical cause for wilt when you have a strong stand of turf. If waiting for wilt means you waited to long,,, means if you drink water when your not dehydrate or thirsty. I guess you just drink to drink? If you rely on man made technology to tell you when to eat or drink vs you showing signs. You are saying I can not tell you my requirement needs better than tools. Sounds like you require wilt causes education. In the end you are saying water before the signs of dehydration occur so to possibly overwater. Not trying to argue just trying to understand why your statement IS without explanation.

Not trying to argue? Perhaps if you understood how plants function, or soils function, or how to irrigate properly you might not think as you do. Typically people who dismiss technology and proven methodologies used by any real professional are those that are ignorant of these.

Curious though, since you seem to feel it appropriate to analogize, do you wait until you are on the verge of death to eat or drink? Of course you also understand that wilt may not be a sign of low soil moisture at all ..... right? How much soil water has been depleted from the effective root zone of the plants you are irrigating when you observe wilt?

[turfmd101]

Originally Posted by Kiril

Not trying to argue? Perhaps if you understood how plants function, or soils function, or how to irrigate properly you might not think as you do. Typically people who dismiss technology and proven methodologies used by any real professional are those that are ignorant of these.

Curious though, since you seem to feel it appropriate to analogize, do you wait until you are on the verge of death to eat or drink? Of course you also understand that wilt may not be a sign of low soil moisture at all ..... right? How much soil water has been depleted from the effective root zone of the plants you are irrigating when you observe wilt?

Everybody knows, YOU ARGUE. Your analogy of would I wait till the verge of death to eat or drink. Would only happen if I could not give myself what I needed when I knew I needed it. I can help myself to my needs as needed. Turfgrass can not. It cannot water itself if it's dehydrated. It cannot give itself more food if it is lacking nutrition.

I know all about your tools and methodologies. These items lack one thing my brain has,,, reasoning and ability to problem solve with wisdom. I can think... Tools can not.

Turfgrass has many stages of signs of drought, before drought damage occurs. Slight wilt, folding foliage to lessen its exposure to the sun, discoloration due to harsh drought. I do not teach to water right before death. That would be foolish. The tools you mention, like say a rain guage. It is only set to turn off a system after a certain amount of rainfall or applied moisture perceived. If it turns off a system. It has no way of knowing what may cause drought, like say 35 mph wind the next 5 days created major dehydration. Does the sensor know environmental causes of drought daily or weekly? No. But my brain does.

My fingers get tired. You want a good honest meeting of the mind. Not looking to argue but to discuss experiences e-mail me at mjd2@att.net. I will give you my phone number. I welcome a gentleman discussion. I don't know everything, just my experiences. I'm opened minded!
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[Smallaxe]

One strategy that I have found effective is to irrigate one day,, when the surface has dried,,, until the water begins to puddle and make mud at the surface... the next day I check to see how deeply that water penetrated through the night and see it the roots have been satisfied...
If not I take note which areas, or zones, could use a little more and that is turned on the second time in 24hrs... Once that is determined I'm able to set a system of watering up that focusses on the needs of the plant... It gives me clues to perculation, retention and rootzone vitality...

The goal of course is to create a positive soil structure right at the surface that doesn't require watering 2 days in a row... The puddling is a SYMPTOM of poor soil structure(esp. plating on the surface) and that is the focus of this thread...

[turfmd101]

Originally Posted by Smallaxe

One strategy that I have found effective is to irrigate one day,, when the surface has dried,,, until the water begins to puddle and make mud at the surface... the next day I check to see how deeply that water penetrated through the night and see it the roots have been satisfied...
If not I take note which areas, or zones, could use a little more and that is turned on the second time in 24hrs... Once that is determined I'm able to set a system of watering up that focusses on the needs of the plant... It gives me clues to perculation, retention and rootzone vitality...

The goal of course is to create a positive soil structure right at the surface that doesn't require watering 2 days in a row... The puddling is a SYMPTOM of poor soil structure(esp. plating on the surface) and that is the focus of this thread...

I can not sell my experiences to a customer on the phone. As I cannot try to convince anyone here that my way should be there's and IM NOT. I just discuss my experiences. I love this industry and enjoy conversations pertaining to it. But I would rather talk than to type disagreements. I will invite conversion with ( 407-538-6380 ). I will not bite, but also will not tolerate biting. If you enjoy gentlemen conversation. Call. I'm always making new Friends, hope you will be one.
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[turfmd101]

Really,,, boo? Anyone interested, axe? Man, I read you! I love my field and I said I goto talk to this guy. He thinks and studies things. Who likes to TALK about THEIR studies, sometimes. Real interest in your geographical area. Possible I can do same.

Hope this doesn't kick me. Don't know what quantities IT. Honesty? Eastern standard time.
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[Smallaxe]

Originally Posted by turfmd101

I can not sell my experiences to a customer on the phone. As I cannot try to convince anyone here that my way should be there's and IM NOT. I just discuss my experiences. I love this industry and enjoy conversations pertaining to it. But I would rather talk than to type disagreements. I will invite conversion with ( 407-538-6380 ). I will not bite, but also will not tolerate biting. If you enjoy gentlemen conversation. Call. I'm always making new Friends, hope you will be one.
Posted via Mobile Device

I didn't think we were in disagreement... in fact you are one of the few people I've come across that manages irrigation by letting the surface dry before watering... some say that you wait too long, but I say there is NO WAY for anyone to know what you see and when you react... so I certainly would be foolish to tell you,,, that you are wrong and ignorant of technologies... that's NOT me...

I too, love the business and enjoy conversations about it,,, but I hate telephones, I don't even call family members unless it is a simple message... I need to be in person to enjoy a conversation at all... there is a possibility that I'll be in FL b4 winter is over, but it sounds like you are pretty far South...

Let me ask you this , though,,, Do you physically inspect the soils when there is a 'surprise' occuring on the turf???

It amazes me that when people have questions and problems, that they never check the soil... looking at the leaves, but not the roots or the environment of the roots just astounds me... I grew up on a farm and we had the entire spectrum of textures and variability of OM within them...
When I'm cultivating the field and noticing the patches of this and that, and seeing how these areas responded to water, I could tell what was happening in the soil after each rain, without ever seeing it or testing it, because I don't have time to look at every field after every rainstorm...
Nevertheless, if one can't know what's happening under the surface and accurately predict what is happening after each rain event, then one should certainly look at the soil and determine moisture/air ratio, retention, structure and of course texture... why do you think that people do not do that???

[Kiril]

Originally Posted by turfmd101

I know all about your tools and methodologies.

Actually, you have made it clear you do not, but whatever dude, think what you want.

Originally Posted by turfmd101

These items lack one thing my brain has,,, reasoning and ability to problem solve with wisdom. I can think... Tools can not.

Case in point.

Originally Posted by turfmd101

Turfgrass has many stages of signs of drought, before drought damage occurs. Slight wilt, folding foliage to lessen its exposure to the sun, discoloration due to harsh drought. I do not teach to water right before death. That would be foolish.

If you think damage to the plant is not occurring as a result of repeated severe drought stress, you need to do some research.

Originally Posted by turfmd101

The tools you mention, like say a rain guage. It is only set to turn off a system after a certain amount of rainfall or applied moisture perceived. If it turns off a system. It has no way of knowing what may cause drought, like say 35 mph wind the next 5 days created major dehydration. Does the sensor know environmental causes of drought daily or weekly? No. But my brain does.

Case in point again. I didn't mention any tool or device or anything of the sort. Further, a rain gauge can save tremendous amounts of water depending on what part of the country you live in. It is not used to measure applied water, nor it is used to measure ET. Why would you attempt to use a rain gauge in this fashion, that is unless you don't know what they are used for or how to use them?

In addition to that, I have never stated on any forum that a site can be irrigated properly without monitoring as you have suggested. However, I also understand that technology has allowed us to irrigate far more effectively and efficiently without having the need to be on every site daily, which is what your "wait till wilt" method requires.

[turfmd101]

Originally Posted by Kiril

Actually, you have made it clear you do not, but whatever dude, think what you want.



Case in point.



If you think damage to the plant is not occurring as a result of repeated severe drought stress, you need to do some research.



Case in point again. I didn't mention any tool or device or anything of the sort. Further, a rain gauge can save tremendous amounts of water depending on what part of the country you live in. It is not used to measure applied water, nor it is used to measure ET. Why would you attempt to use a rain gauge in this fashion, that is unless you don't know what they are used for or how to use them?

In addition to that, I have never stated on any forum that a site can be irrigated properly without monitoring as you have suggested. However, I also understand that technology has allowed us to irrigate far more effectively and efficiently without having the need to be on every site daily, which is what your "wait till wilt" method requires.

Perhaps we have miss understandings,,, of what we do?..

My customer base is, 1K to 20K. Side by side,,, I like that best. High margins.
Larger properties do not maintain the minimal use of money... They cost to much.
Plus they don't have, what you might call a "tool". I call, me when IM not there.

My customers have a "COMPLETE,,, UNDERSTANDING", of their part in the yard they love. From the first meet. I know what will cost or profit. A business must.
They will be the one who turns on the irrigation per our training. They love understanding things... After my customer, learns how their landscape will function and "BELIEVE", when I visit their property that it's not,,, magic I perform,,, because I'd be rich.. "POTENTIAL CUSTOMER". I need someone to work with also.
"WE", agree IM the guy who helps them perform,,, magic. They had no idea they had. That's a "HAPPY" customer. WHO PAYS,,,PAYS,,, means more than the passing of money...

In the end,,, my customers don't often have to water. I use minimal pesticides. Webworm doesn't bother them. They understand their mowing services role.
All goes well. I coach things along with experience...the one thing they can never surpass me in. Keeping the bond between me and my "MAGIC".. Perception... Now that's a tool.

How much is your cost of businesses... It's what you keep,,, not what you MAKE.
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[Kiril]

Originally Posted by turfmd101

Perhaps we have miss understandings,,, of what we do?..

Hmmm, yes. My work is primarily centered around irrigation and soil management, with the education and nearly 2 decades of experience to back it up. The rest of your post makes no sense at all, nor does it address any of the points or questions I brought up. That said, if you and axe feel either of your methods are superior to widely accepted industry methodologies, then by all means present your views on irrigation management in the irrigation forum, where you views can be vetted by professionals in the field.

[heritage]

Originally Posted by Kiril

IMO, the best approach is a mixed BCSR and SLAN using sustainable methods on a site by site basis.

Thanks Kiril



Will continue to Bridge Organics with Mineral Elements.

Adding more Carbon per application than years past.....