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  #11  
Old 04-17-2013, 06:59 AM
Mark Oomkes Mark Oomkes is online now
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I can remember the days when TG and Chemlawn performed 4 apps for their normal service contract. Then someone in marketing decided that if 4 was good, 5 was better, then 6, and 7 now? So of course, the window became shorter and shorter, because it turned into how many apps to increase revenue instead of providing the customer with a healthy stand of turf.

John, not sure if you did, but I know many of the others perform 2 apps of pre-m because they do have 6 weeks of apps and can't get around quick enough. Again, a waste of money, time and not good for the environment.

Like DA stated, maybe one has too much work then. What if a mowing guy has 16 hours of mowing per day but only 12 hours of light to do it, so he starts mowing in the dark and can't make a straight line or trim properly or blow off? What do we say about that guy? He has too much work, right? Or the guy plowing for 24 hours after a 2" snowfall. Or going around salting after the sun is out melting the snow because he can't get around fast enough, too much work.

Too much work should not be an excuse for performing work improperly.
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  #12  
Old 04-17-2013, 08:22 AM
Mark Oomkes Mark Oomkes is online now
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So, if a customer wants a fungicide application 2 hours before a rain starts, do we do it?

What if the customer requested we ignore federal labels?
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  #13  
Old 04-17-2013, 11:34 AM
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Well I was going to try fertilizing too early...and compare the results to fert applied at the proper time. But the "proper time" is a bit indefinite.
Is it still too early? 52 degrees at the moment.
I guess I will have to compare my daughter's lawn with others in her neighborhood.

I would like to see side by side comparisons of too early, just right, and too late fertilization with nitrogen.

Last edited by RigglePLC; 04-17-2013 at 11:35 AM. Reason: add
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  #14  
Old 04-17-2013, 11:56 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RigglePLC View Post
... I would like to see side by side comparisons of too early, just right, and too late fertilization with nitrogen.
This is where the propagandists are able to introduce CONFUSION... There is no question that a fresh app of N,,, almost anytime that there is enough moisture and warmth available is going to make it LOOK GREEN even greener sometimes...
Instant gratification is NOT the objective... DENSITY is...

I've noticed over the years that people who believe they have the perfect lawn(as you look at it from the road) oftentimes, have very thin density of rather sickly looking plants... lots of dirt space between the individual plants even to the point you could COUNT the number per sq.ft...

Turf that went into the winter with adequate storage of nutrient/carbs will easily come up green in the Spring... after a couple of mowings the roots have generally done about as much expansion as they can do and the turf is ready for a good breakfast... This is helpful to feed the entire plant for its gorwth period here w/out taking energy from the roots,,, but should actually give it energy to INCREASE the number of blades during this period...

The step step of progression is Summer dormancy and THIS is the time to see and compare... Look closely at the lawn for texture, density AND color during this difficult period ,,, then AGAIN in the Fall when growth starts up again...

The idea of instant green is what sells the h.o. on the lie of healthy turf right out of winter dormancy...
Check it out for the Season and see what you think...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
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  #15  
Old 04-17-2013, 12:03 PM
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So, essentially we have a moral argument here. Either do your work ethically and scientifically correct OR do it to make money at all costs. I still choose #1.
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  #16  
Old 04-17-2013, 12:30 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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I don't know that I'd place the MORAL blame on fellow LCOs because, in fact,, I realize myself that I've been DUPED by the so-called "experts" over the years...
Companies like TGCL/Scotts etc. may very well be the culprits for disinformation about the benefits of their programs and,,, like the popular media,,, took advantage of our ignorance(lack of knowledge) and trust...

Fortunately the internet came along and gave me access to a lot of information for me to think about, ideas to research and experiment with, then ultimately a strategy to put into practice...
Of course the MOST IMPORTANT aspect of this information is the ability to sort out truth from error and sense from foolishness, in order to gain UNDERSTANDING...

Which is why I appreciate someone pointing out where my thinking went bad, but am irritated by those who trash talk becuz I don't buy into their world view of "experts being the high priests of knowledge"...

There's always time to think it through...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #17  
Old 04-18-2013, 02:46 PM
Mark Oomkes Mark Oomkes is online now
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So, can anyone tell me what happens to fert\pre-m when there is 4" of rain one week, another inch a couple days later and then 3.5"+ a day or so after that?

Mind you, turf is not even close to growing yet, as ground temps are still in the low 40's.

Not to mention this gem from Michigan State:

Quote:
Preemergence Herbicide Applications for Crabgrass Control

Unlike the spring of 2012, the spring of 2013 is off to a very slow start with cool temperatures and soaking rains the last week. There have been several inquiries within the last week about when to apply preemergence herbicides for crabgrass control. Summer annual grasses such as crabgrass require proper soil temperature and moisture to germinate and establish. Eighty percent of germination will occur when the 0-2 inch depth soil temperature is consistently reaching 60-70 degrees F. For preemergence herbicides to be effective they need to be applied before the soils reach this optimum temperature range. For example, soil temperatures at the Hancock Turfgrass Research Center on campus indicate soil temperatures still hovering in the low to mid 40’s. We have a growing degree day (GDD) model available at GDDTracker.net that uses GDD to indirectly measure soil temperatures in a turf situation (enter your zipcode under the map and then click on the Crabgrass PRE button). As with all models, discretion and understanding of local conditions should be considered. The target range for this model attempts to predict when the 0-2 inch depth soil temperatures consistently reach 50-55 degrees F and therefore provides adequate time for the preemergence herbicide to be applied and watered in before crabgrass germination occurs.
Preemergence application timing for crabgrass in Michigan is usually between April 15 and May 15. Using prediction models at GDDTracker.net indicate that with the exception of a small area just north of the border near Toledo, the entire state is still either in the ‘Early’ or ‘Under’ application window. Areas in the ‘Under’ application window may be days from being bumped up to the ‘Early’ application window or for areas under snow may be several weeks or more away. The most common question right now is if your location is in the ‘Early’ application window whether or not preemergence applications at this time will be effective. Applying preemergence herbicides in the ‘Early’ application window is effective and most professional lawn care companies will time applications on the early side because of the reliable medium and long-residual herbicides that are available and the number of properties they are treating. Most homeowners are probably waiting for the first warm weekend in mid-April, often coinciding with the ‘Optimum’ period to make their application. A good environmental indicator for the ‘Optimum’ period that I have not witnessed yet this year is to look for when forsythia bushes are blooming with their bright yellow flowers. Whether you target your application for the early or optimum window, remember the practices than encourage a healthy, dense turf stand such as mowing high, returning clippings, and adequate fertilization are all part of an effective crabgrass prevention strategy.
While other than the potential flush of growth which isn't good for the turf, there is the whole idea of being environmentally responsible. If the turf isn't using it, and with this amount of rain, it is just getting washed right into Lake Michigan.

Good plan!
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  #18  
Old 04-18-2013, 03:56 PM
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Mark - nice article and I agree. We would be in the 'under' here now too, solidly. Yet guys are flinging it.

Oh, and how come you say soil temps are in the low 40's, and Riggle says it is 50?
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  #19  
Old 04-18-2013, 04:27 PM
Mark Oomkes Mark Oomkes is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DA Quality Lawn & YS View Post
Mark - nice article and I agree. We would be in the 'under' here now too, solidly. Yet guys are flinging it.

Oh, and how come you say soil temps are in the low 40's, and Riggle says it is 50?
I looked at my map from DTN, which is a couple days old. My mistake.

They are higher than low 40's. Or were.

http://www.agweather.geo.msu.edu/maw...sp?fileid=hvld
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  #20  
Old 04-19-2013, 08:23 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Oomkes View Post
So, can anyone tell me what happens to fert\pre-m when there is 4" of rain one week, another inch a couple days later and then 3.5"+ a day or so after that?

Mind you, turf is not even close to growing yet, as ground temps are still in the low 40's.

Not to mention this gem from Michigan State:



While other than the potential flush of growth which isn't good for the turf, there is the whole idea of being environmentally responsible. If the turf isn't using it, and with this amount of rain, it is just getting washed right into Lake Michigan.

Good plan!
What is the URL for your quote here??? I think I like this site...
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