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  #1  
Old 06-21-2013, 05:30 PM
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sprinklerchris sprinklerchris is offline
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Lightbulb New Kichler LED Lamps

Anybody tried these yet? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhEc_...ature=youtu.be
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  #2  
Old 06-22-2013, 08:04 AM
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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting is offline
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I have not seen, evaluated, or used the Kichler lamps yet so Don't have an opinion. I do hope they publish Full specifications and spectral data though.

This has been a remarkable year in The LED market as most of the major players have launched new LED Lamp Lines. At Lightfair the story of the show was LED Lamps as seemingly every major brand launched new lamp products. More and more designers, specifiers, and engineers are looking towards LED lamps, rather than integrated fixtures, as they have learned the hard way about the pitfalls of using integrated fixtures in what are supposed to be permanent installations. Not to mention the challenge of matching output characteristics of multiple manufacturers integrated LED luminaires.

Not trying to be smug here, but.... I told you so!
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Old 06-22-2013, 12:32 PM
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I just looked at their website. Not much there in the way of specs--- just
"wattage" and beam spread. Not even the basics -- lumens and CRI.
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Old 06-22-2013, 12:55 PM
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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting is offline
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Somewhat typical for the 'big brands' when it comes to LED products. I remember it took them forever to publish any technical specifications on their integrated LED products. Even now you have to request the info if you want anything more than colour temperature and beam spread. I dont understand why more manufacturers do not publish their test data/results. I guess they feel that the middle of the market, their target market, doesn't have any use or need for the info.
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Old 06-22-2013, 09:32 PM
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I used some of their 2 watt bi-pins last week because I was in a Jam. I go out of my way to NOT use kichler whenever possible. Anyway, all my dist house had on hand was the 3000k. Seemed very cold to me, but that is typical for kichler IMHO.
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Old 06-24-2013, 08:35 AM
steveparrott steveparrott is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting View Post
. . .This has been a remarkable year in The LED market as most of the major players have launched new LED Lamp Lines. At Lightfair the story of the show was LED Lamps as seemingly every major brand launched new lamp products. More and more designers, specifiers, and engineers are looking towards LED lamps, rather than integrated fixtures, as they have learned the hard way about the pitfalls of using integrated fixtures in what are supposed to be permanent installations. Not to mention the challenge of matching output characteristics of multiple manufacturers integrated LED luminaires.

Not trying to be smug here, but.... I told you so!
James, I challenge your analysis and interpretation of industry trends. The best manufacturers of enclosed outdoor fixtures (meaning spec-grade) are not using drop-in LED lamps - they are all going for integrated - and the very best are developing modular integrated. Simply stated, the easy, cheap way to integrate LED's into any fixture is to use drop-ins - the better way is to re-design fixtures to fully leverage the new technology.

The landscape lighting manufacturers who only provide their LED sources in the old incandescent replaceable drop-in lamp forms are trying to put a square peg in a round hole. It is impossible to provide the environment and electronics in these old forms to fully realize the potential of LED's. The science is sound on this - and I have yet to see a drop-in manufacturer release any data to prove that their high power drop-ins will not overheat - not to mention EMI problems.

Also, your contention that more and more designers, specifiers, and engineers are looking to drop-ins rather than integrated is just not true. I would agree that these groups are no fans of integrated fixtures that give you no options for changing beam spread, adding filters, and that must be thrown away if they fail. These group are, instead, very juiced about modular integrated LED fixtures.

To sum this up I would say that we should not look upon the decisions of lower end manufacturers to sell LED drop-ins as any kind of evidence that drop-ins are superior to modular integrated.
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Old 06-24-2013, 10:12 AM
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I don't have a side to take in this debate but I'm curious as to which spec-grade manufacturers are designing and producing integrated fixtures. (I know who are making the better LEDs for use in existing fixtures.)
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Old 06-25-2013, 01:36 AM
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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting is offline
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I think it is interesting that GE, Philips, Sylvania Osram, Soraa, Toshiba, LSG, CRS ..... Are essentially being labeled as "lower end manufacturers". Really? Do you really think that all of these top name manufacturers of LED lamps are putting out under performing and lack lustre product that won't live up to expectations?

The market is quickly filling up with all sorts of very high performance LED lamps for all sorts of applications. The product is widely available and prices are becoming very competitive.

Also, I have yet to come across anyone who can pose an effective argument for using integrated LED fixtures from a variety of manufacturers. When you do so, you end up with a bit of a mess in terms of colour, CRI, and intensity differences. I assure you that I am not the only one who repels from such mish mash installations. Then look to the interior lighting industry... Same issues only in a much larger scale. Fact is, the most common complaint I hear about LED in my circles of designers and builders is the one against integrated LED fixtures from multiple Manufacturers. There is simply not enough standardization (yet). Not so with complete LED lamp lines from the same Manufacturer... As these tend to rely upon the same chipsets and optics across the full line of lamps.

Steve, we have hashed this out more than once... Lets just agree to disagree. Ultimately the market will decide if one of us is 'right'.
(BTW, my earlier references to the trends away from integrated LED, lightfair trends, major brands, etc, was not limited to the low voltage outdoor lighting segment but rather the industry as a whole. Integrated LED product is still very popular and probably prevalent in the out door sector, but nonetheless, still problematic.)
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  #9  
Old 06-25-2013, 08:27 AM
steveparrott steveparrott is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting View Post
I think it is interesting that GE, Philips, Sylvania Osram, Soraa, Toshiba, LSG, CRS ..... Are essentially being labeled as "lower end manufacturers". Really? Do you really think that all of these top name manufacturers of LED lamps are putting out under performing and lack lustre product that won't live up to expectations?

The market is quickly filling up with all sorts of very high performance LED lamps for all sorts of applications. The product is widely available and prices are becoming very competitive.

Also, I have yet to come across anyone who can pose an effective argument for using integrated LED fixtures from a variety of manufacturers. When you do so, you end up with a bit of a mess in terms of colour, CRI, and intensity differences. I assure you that I am not the only one who repels from such mish mash installations. Then look to the interior lighting industry... Same issues only in a much larger scale. Fact is, the most common complaint I hear about LED in my circles of designers and builders is the one against integrated LED fixtures from multiple Manufacturers. There is simply not enough standardization (yet). Not so with complete LED lamp lines from the same Manufacturer... As these tend to rely upon the same chipsets and optics across the full line of lamps.

Steve, we have hashed this out more than once... Lets just agree to disagree. Ultimately the market will decide if one of us is 'right'.
(BTW, my earlier references to the trends away from integrated LED, lightfair trends, major brands, etc, was not limited to the low voltage outdoor lighting segment but rather the industry as a whole. Integrated LED product is still very popular and probably prevalent in the out door sector, but nonetheless, still problematic.)
Yes, I can agree to disagree and I am not dissing the excellent manufacturers you mention - my focus is on the use of their products in enclosed outdoor fixtures. If we were making indoor fixtures then I'm sure we'd be using drop-ins, too.

Also, I don't see a "mish mash" problem with our products - all within a fairly tight range of CCT and CRI. And, combining our products with others with similar specs shouldn't be a problem.
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  #10  
Old 06-25-2013, 03:23 PM
GreenLight GreenLight is offline
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Somewhere between being the purchaser of both products and the reseller to the end user, is simple reality. I know it's probably frustrating to a lot of manus to hear this, but most of us in the contracting world are dealing with heavy competition. In this competition, comes a very fine line of three very important aspects. Price point, Quality and Warranty. Integrated fixtures can really be there own worst enemy at times.

Example:

Bare Bones fixture without any lamping: $62.00
Same Fixture with High quality LED Drop in that has 5 year Warranty: $92.00
Same Fixture with Integrated, Encapsulated LED & 10 Year Warranty: $183.00

We can bicker all day about "don't ever sell a system by the fixture", but at the end of the day if you sell a 10 light LED job with transformer @ $2700.00, the customer is going to be able to basically use deductive reasoning to see about how much it is costing them per fixture. If I install the same cookie cutter 10 light LED job with the integrated LED in the example above I literally need to be at about $4500-$5000 to turn the same percentage of profit. In today's atmosphere, all contractors are trying to find reliability with an extremely competitive price point. While that Integrated fixture may in fact be a more realistic rendition of a long term LED solution, it's a very hard sell in many cases.

The trend im seeing is contractors and lighting specialists are looking at MANUS base fixture, then comparing that price point to the manus same fixture with integrated LED. IN many cases that number is 2.5-3X greater for integration.. Logic hits you in the face and says "I can pay an extra $125.00 for integration or pay $25.00-$30.00 for a stand alone lamp and just upgrade the base fixture". While I know this maybe frowned upon as "well there is no field testing for that lamp with that fixture", etc.. But as long as I have demo'd the lamp to my satisfaction and have a warranty in hand, I have to compete with my market. I know it's not necessarily fair or comparing apples to apples, but so far most of the big LED Lamp names have helped themselves tremendously with low failure rates in my experience. I can count on two fingers how many failures I have had in 2.5 years.
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