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  #11  
Old 07-16-2013, 08:01 AM
Skipster Skipster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Perhaps it would be better if some people would understand how nutrients can move off-site via surface and subsurface flow and potentially become a source pollution.

Perhaps you might want to conduct a search on pig and poultry manure as it applies to phosphorus pollution.
This is an interesting thought experiment that introduces a lot of confounding factors. Maybe we could add to this research conclusions from several universities that found more P in runoff water from unfertilized soils than soils where P was added at 10# actual P/M for successive years.

Research has shown us that P doesn't move quite like other nutrients move and that mass flow doesn't have the same effect on P as it does on other nutrients.

There's a reason Auburn's Beth Guertal calls P "nature's slow release fertilizer."
  #12  
Old 07-16-2013, 09:56 AM
Victorsaur Victorsaur is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
I see that this has gone into another "kiril bashing somebody" episode,,, so it is over,,, AGAIN...
Give Kiril a fair chance to respond to my response where I provided evidence to support my claim as he has added evidence to support his.
  #13  
Old 07-16-2013, 10:23 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by Victorsaur View Post
I'm basing this concolusion on an article written by NC State University that states the soil in this area is so lacking in phosphorous that it is generally a good idea to add it. Not only this particular article, but advice from a professional that has been working in this area for many years and for big companies in the area. As soil is particular area by area, what other people post about levels of P won't necessarily reflect the natural soil type of Asheville's mountain soil which is naturally lacking in P, Mg, and Ca, also taken from an official NCSU article...

Furthermore most lawns in this area are infested with clovers. This is only possible because the tall fescue which is the standard grass around here cannot compete with their root systems which is a symptom of phosphorous lacking in soil.
What does your area have to do with any other area? You made a broad ranging statement regarding P in soils, I questioned your conclusion and rightfully so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victorsaur View Post
Let's be pragmatic. If I refuse to fertilize with P, people will continue to do so because they simply don't care. If, however, I was able to find a way to minimize the risk of runoff pollution while still providing P then I would be a lot more likely to make a positive change on the issue that you bring up. The local master gardener extension states that correctly applying P will not pose a risk of pollution. Although your concerns are legitimate we need to be realistic about what will reduce phosphorous pollution.
Let's be clear about something here. I didn't bring the "issue" up, axe did, now in two different threads. I am merely demonstrating that statements made here are far from accurate, which is what you typically get in an axe thread.

Now let's really be pragmatic. Use soil tests and observed plant response to determine nutrient need, not a "let's put it down because everyone else does" type of management program.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipster View Post
This is an interesting thought experiment that introduces a lot of confounding factors. Maybe we could add to this research conclusions from several universities that found more P in runoff water from unfertilized soils than soils where P was added at 10# actual P/M for successive years.
By all means post the research. While we wait .....

http://turf.unl.edu/pdfcaextpub/TurfP.pdf

http://www.usga.org/turf/green_secti...phosphorus.pdf
  #14  
Old 07-16-2013, 10:46 AM
Victorsaur Victorsaur is offline
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http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/hil/hil-551.html

Check phosphorous and calcium. My so called broad ranging statement was really just pointing out that your broad ranging statement was invalid because the soil in my area is actually low in P.

Not only this article but volunteers at the local cooperative extension which gives free soil tests also state most soils around here are lacking in P. And there is the physical evidence which I have provided.
  #15  
Old 07-16-2013, 10:59 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by Victorsaur View Post
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/hil/hil-551.html

Check phosphorous and calcium. My so called broad ranging statement was really just pointing out that your broad ranging statement was invalid because the soil in my area is actually low in P.
What broad ranging statement would that be? Provide a quote victor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victorsaur View Post
Not only this article but volunteers at the local cooperative extension which gives free soil tests also state most soils around here are lacking in P. And there is the physical evidence which I have provided.
And again, what does any of this have to do with soils from around the country/world?
  #16  
Old 07-16-2013, 11:25 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by Victorsaur View Post
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/hil/hil-551.html

Check phosphorous and calcium. My so called broad ranging statement was really just pointing out that your broad ranging statement was invalid because the soil in my area is actually low in P.

Not only this article but volunteers at the local cooperative extension which gives free soil tests also state most soils around here are lacking in P. And there is the physical evidence which I have provided.
BTW ... since you apparently feel it is appropriate to use the above as guides for your fertilizer program, ...... from your link since you apparently missed it.
A soil test is the only way to determine if phosphorus, potassium, calcium, or magnesium must be added or if a pH adjustment is needed. Without a soil test, any application of fertilizer could be detrimental to the landscape. Over application or application of unneeded materials could result in salt injury to plants, cause nutrient imbalances unsuitable for plant growth, and is environmentally unsound.

What does the above mean? Fertilizer need is determined on a site by site basis.
  #17  
Old 07-16-2013, 06:14 PM
Skipster Skipster is offline
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Originally Posted by Kiril View Post


By all means post the research. While we wait .....
You were one of the posters who summarily dismissed all my research links because one of them was a golf turf link. Then, you post a putting green link to bolster your position about heavier soil lawns. Interesting ....

However, this following publication is only the first that comes to mind on the topic:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20048316

Phosphorus runoff from turfgrass as affected by phosphorus fertilization and clipping management.
Journal of Enviro Quality
Bierman et al., 2009

"Total P runoff from the no fertilizer treatment was greater than from treatments receiving fertilizer."

I'll post others when I get some time.

BTW, it sure would be nice to have a conversation with someone who understands soils and doesn't berate others over things he does not know.
  #18  
Old 07-16-2013, 06:25 PM
Victorsaur Victorsaur is offline
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I'm really not sure why you keep implying that I don't test soil when I've already told you that my information is based on multiple soil tests from the local Master Gardener cooperative extension. Can we stay on topic Kiril?

My point is this: Phosphorous is a viable, valuable fertilizer to apply. It is severely lacking in certain soils in certain parts of the world. Also, when it is correctly applied it is generally not a danger. I've provided evidence to support the first claim and trust what those employed by the state have informed me of enough to say the second.

From my point of view, you point is that phosphorous is such a dangerous fertilizer to apply that nobody should apply it, correct?

My response to your point was that whether this statement is accurate or not, people will continue to apply the fertilizer because many people in this world don't care. So you being "right" won't convince people to change. If this conversation doesn't aim to find a realistic solution then what are we wasting our time for?

EDIT: Ditto what Skipster said. You are fairly condescending for not knowing very much about the topic being discussed. I'm here to educate myself and others, not to "win" an argument.
  #19  
Old 07-16-2013, 07:27 PM
turfmd101 turfmd101 is offline
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I haven't dropped out. I'm watching how it plays out. There's enough being discussed for me to avoid argument. Hats off everyone.
  #20  
Old 07-17-2013, 04:04 AM
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Charles Charles is offline
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This has turned into a argument, so time to move on and close this one
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