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Old 09-07-2013, 07:33 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is online now
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Humates come from living Plants and Animals

They are created only by the processes of living things... No non-living force such as Pressure, Heat, Fire, Water or Time creates these humic acids...

Is that True???
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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Old 09-07-2013, 08:40 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is online now
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For us nerds,,, one could say that they are the basis of being,,, a Carbon Based Life Form... You know,,, like Coal...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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Old 09-09-2013, 07:54 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
They are created only by the processes of living things... No non-living force such as Pressure, Heat, Fire, Water or Time creates these humic acids...

Is that True???
Of course it is true...

Therefore,,, Adding More Humates may very well be totally unnecessary and redundant,,, due to current SOM...

Yet there are soils that it can help out,,, so it would be wise to see the difference and recognize when "Buying" more humus is a good idea and when it is a waste...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:09 PM
NattyLawn NattyLawn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Of course it is true...

Therefore,,, Adding More Humates may very well be totally unnecessary and redundant,,, due to current SOM...

Yet there are soils that it can help out,,, so it would be wise to see the difference and recognize when "Buying" more humus is a good idea and when it is a waste...
Most commerical humates sold are leonardite, or soft coal. I agree, applying raw leonardite to soils that don't need it isn't a good thing. The humates I mostly dealt with were made soluble through processes that are proprietary (and I don't know nearly enough to explain them). Now, water soluble humates added to organic granular fertilizer produced a deep dark green that rivaled the chemical counterparts. I think the article in Turf mentioned that Lebanon is now producing fert with soluble humate. It works. Humic acid liquid products work very well on golf greens and tree applications in very small amounts.

Shifting back to raw leonardite, one area I disagree with is you stated "Humus is humus is humus". That isn't true. Would I rather apply a product that has been aged for 50-100 years conservatively, or apply compost that you made in your back yard that has been doing it's thing for a few months? I would pick the leonardite on a paying customers yard. Why? Your compost is not a stable form of humus. Most of the humus would be gone before that material breaks down in the soil. Would I rather do 1 app of leaonardite that I can apply with a spreader, or 4 apps of spreading compost 1-2" thick? Which is more bang for the buck for the customer?

You tend to attack things you haven't used before. I think your opinions would carry more weight if you actually bit the bullet and tried some of the products you bash. Unlike you, I've used them. Maybe phasthound can send you some samples that you really don't deserve. Or maybe you can shell out some cash for a compost tea brewer. Oh wait, we don't know the soils in Wisconsin. Leaonardite and compost tea won't work with your clay!!! If that's the case, why do you give advice for people in other areas with different soils?
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  #5  
Old 09-11-2013, 11:24 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NattyLawn View Post
Most commerical humates sold are leonardite, or soft coal. I agree, applying raw leonardite to soils that don't need it isn't a good thing. The humates I mostly dealt with were made soluble through processes that are proprietary (and I don't know nearly enough to explain them). Now, water soluble humates added to organic granular fertilizer produced a deep dark green that rivaled the chemical counterparts. I think the article in Turf mentioned that Lebanon is now producing fert with soluble humate. It works. Humic acid liquid products work very well on golf greens and tree applications in very small amounts.

Shifting back to raw leonardite, one area I disagree with is you stated "Humus is humus is humus". That isn't true. Would I rather apply a product that has been aged for 50-100 years conservatively, or apply compost that you made in your back yard that has been doing it's thing for a few months? I would pick the leonardite on a paying customers yard. Why? Your compost is not a stable form of humus. Most of the humus would be gone before that material breaks down in the soil. Would I rather do 1 app of leaonardite that I can apply with a spreader, or 4 apps of spreading compost 1-2" thick? Which is more bang for the buck for the customer?

You tend to attack things you haven't used before. I think your opinions would carry more weight if you actually bit the bullet and tried some of the products you bash. Unlike you, I've used them. Maybe phasthound can send you some samples that you really don't deserve. Or maybe you can shell out some cash for a compost tea brewer. Oh wait, we don't know the soils in Wisconsin. Leaonardite and compost tea won't work with your clay!!! If that's the case, why do you give advice for people in other areas with different soils?
I'm not bashing products,,, rather pushing for Truth in Advertising...

I say that there are soils in which Humates are redundant... Those who claim that EVERY soil will benefit need to substantiate that claim,,, with some kind of logical scientific reality... I was told that the million year old humates are superior to active humates and that is not science at all... beyond that there was no discussion...

As far as compost tea goes,,, I don't bash that either,,, but I would like you to tell me what the microbes EAT after 3 or 4 years of ONLY applying AACT...

I do not accept that a partial look at these products is adequate... if the "Rest of the Story" is hidden or otherwise obscured then THAT is what I'm after... I'm not bashing the products at all,,, only the half-truths...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #6  
Old 09-11-2013, 03:27 PM
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phasthound phasthound is offline
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Natty answered your questions very politely about the differences of humates, humus and humic acids. Other articles have been posted with this information.
The compost tea question has been discussed to death redundantly.

You have every right to disagree with whatever you like. No need to discuss anymore.
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The nation that destroys its soil destroys itself.
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