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Old 06-24-2014, 08:36 PM
The Amazing Dan The Amazing Dan is offline
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Location: Clarks summit pa
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2007 Toro X Master 589 won't start / stay running

2007 Toro Z Master 589 shutting down / wont start
2007 Toro Z Master 589 Liquid Cooled Commercial started acting up at the beginning of this season. I didn't drain the gas this past year. I had a difficult time turning it over for the first cut this year. I figured that once the old gas was gone, so were my problems. It ran like crap for about a minute but eventually ran seemingly correctly.

Normally, when I turn the key from the off position to the run position, I have always heard a "winding" sound which lasted 2 seconds and when the 1 light on the console went out, I would turn the key to the start position and it would turn over. No problem.

This year, the winding wasn't happening all the time. There were times this year that I would turn the key many times in an attempt to start and there was no cranking when I turned to the start position. That was always accompanied by the lack of winding.

There were times when I wouldn't get the winding but got cranking, but it never turned over in this condition.

When I got the winding, the cranking and the running, I would never shut the mower off and would try to complete my cut.

I tried this a couple of days ago. This was my third cut of the year, so I decided to spend the time and bag it this time. It turned over after just a few attempts. I went to empty the bags, was backing into the dump area and the machine started running crappy again. It was almost like the way it runs when the 1 tank runs out of gas and the lag that occurs when you switch tanks. It never recovered and eventually stalled. (It's not out of gas...it's sitting doa with 10 gal of 89 octane in it).

So right now, when I turn the key, I get the 2 lights. The one goes out at 2 seconds, like it always did, but there is no winding. It cranks but doesn't turn over. Also worthy of note, when I stop cranking, I do hear the fan behind me come on for a second as I move from start to run.

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Old 06-25-2014, 12:19 AM
herler herler is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Amazing Dan View Post
It cranks but doesn't turn over.
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Well if it cranks then it's turning over because that is what cranking means?
Help me out here...

Imagine if you will back in the old days, the cars our forefathers had to crank from the front of the hood via a handle, manually.
Basically so long that handle was turning, so was the engine?
The process of turning the handle is called cranking, and so long the handle engages the engine then it is also turning over.

So...
Is the engine's flywheel being engaged by the starter?
So the engine is 'cranking,' but not FIRING?

Otherwise it's the starter.
Which, that's a possibility.

You'd know it almost right away, a starter that doesn't engage the flywheel simply spins real fast and you can hear its distinct sound.
But there's nothing from the engine, nothing at all, if the starter is failing to catch then the engine sits completely still.
It is a very distinct sound, nothing like the usual starting process.

Now if the engine isn't 'starting' but it is turning over...
That's likely a problem between the fuel, air supply, or spark.

Which is it?

Last edited by herler; 06-25-2014 at 12:24 AM.
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Old 06-25-2014, 05:58 AM
The Amazing Dan The Amazing Dan is offline
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I'm not sidestepping the fuel, air supply, spark question.

I don't know those answers. Part of me feels it is fuel and air. Here is why: this machine is not like most small engines. There is no choke. When I turn the key from "stop" to "run" (and before turning to "start") the machine appears to be doing a pre-start routine. There is a light on the control panel that comes on and go out. This is accompanied by the "winding" noise, which also only lasts 2 seconds. That noise (which isnt a cranking noise) accompanied every successful start in the past. It is now not making that noise. IS THIS A PRIMING (or a "choking")?
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Old 06-25-2014, 08:40 AM
kgs1 kgs1 is offline
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You have an EFI (Electronic Fuel Injection) ??? The sound your hearing is the electric pump priming. the light goes out when the sound stops right? telling you that its primed and ready to start.
If you don't have that sound anymore than more than likely your fuel pump is bad.
Follow the fuel lines from the tank(s) to the fuel pump, you should see wires connected to the pump...you should have 12 volts at the pump. Use a muliti- meter and test for 12 volts at the pump....pos lead on the red wire and neg lead on the black wire...see what you have, if your engine is cranking then you have 12 volts to the engine etc...so you should have 12 volts to the pump as well...
when testing it you should have 12 volts when you turn the key to the on position, you don't have to crank the engine to test it. Test it a few times to be sure, have someone help you if you need to turn the key to ON position.

Last edited by kgs1; 06-25-2014 at 08:44 AM. Reason: added text
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Old 06-25-2014, 01:35 PM
The Amazing Dan The Amazing Dan is offline
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I'm liking that answer. Can't wait to give it a new look tonight.
I'll be sure to update.
Thanks.
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Old 06-27-2014, 09:20 PM
kgs1 kgs1 is offline
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What did you find out???
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Old 07-05-2014, 08:18 AM
The Amazing Dan The Amazing Dan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgs1 View Post
What did you find out???
Well, what I found out is that part is stupidly expensive! It is a minimum of $320.51 everywhere except one site (MowerPartsDirect). Found it there for $288($302 delivered).
Since I still have the wheel horse, I can still mow (but I had to convert it back from the snow blower set up). So delivery date wasn't a big selling point. I tried MowPart's price match option...but they never replied (surprise).
Anyway, I ordered it on 6/29 and I'll get it on 7/8.
With any luck, after what looks like 2 hose clamps, 1 bolt and 1 wire harness (10 min work) I'll be mowing again.
I will update though.
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Old 07-05-2014, 08:19 AM
The Amazing Dan The Amazing Dan is offline
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Old 07-05-2014, 07:36 PM
bigmower1 bigmower1 is offline
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That winding noise usually is the starter hanging up, for a moment because the gear is not pulling back fast enough. Do not worry about that right now, you will need a new starter eventually. Check your choke and make sure it is closing all the way, not just about, completely, take off the air cleaner to verify this. Sometimes the choke cable slides. If it is EFI, then it could be a pump going bad, is the fuel filter clean?
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Old 07-05-2014, 08:33 PM
The Amazing Dan The Amazing Dan is offline
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Originally Posted by bigmower1 View Post
That winding noise usually is the starter hanging up, for a moment because the gear is not pulling back fast enough. Do not worry about that right now, you will need a new starter eventually. Check your choke and make sure it is closing all the way, not just about, completely, take off the air cleaner to verify this. Sometimes the choke cable slides. If it is EFI, then it could be a pump going bad, is the fuel filter clean?
I'm hoping you misunderstood me (because I ordered a fuel pump). It's not so much of a winding as it is a whining. Recall that it is in the run position, not the start position.
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