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  #31  
Old 07-29-2015, 03:27 AM
emby emby is offline
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It's late, I just got home from an aiming session so I will respond to this tomorrow morning. Sorry...
Lots to discuss and by no means did I mean to start a debate......
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  #32  
Old 07-29-2015, 08:46 AM
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Michael J. Donovan Michael J. Donovan is online now
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everyone, YES everyone is entitled to their opinion...that being said, we are all for decent debate, disagreements, even "civil" arguments, however, as I've asked plenty of times before, please do not insult, call one another names, etc. in the process.

everyone can coexist here and all are welcome to in a discussion.

thanks, we would appreciate it
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  #33  
Old 07-29-2015, 08:48 AM
steveparrott steveparrott is offline
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Jim, thank you! It's refreshing to hear your comments that (I believe) represent the spirit of the landscape lighting industry.

In complete opposition to most of the posts in this thread, I say that one of the great things about our industry is that it's fairly easy to learn the basics. A one-day seminar can get you started. That's certainly enough time to learn the basic safety guidelines. And, for companies like VOLT, every product includes a safety sheet (a UL requirement).

Unlike the electrical profession, there are very few barriers to entry into this profession. Anyone with the desire and passion can enter the profession - this has been a huge boon to the ones who love the landscape and want to see it beautiful at night. They can (in most regions) safely enter the profession without the burden of getting a license. I've always loved this aspect - an artistic profession should be available to artists - and no one should force them to become electricians.

What you do after the basic training is to begin a process of learning that can last a lifetime. Mentoring, experimentation, further trainings - it's totally up to the individual. All these things add value to that person's business, and that value equates with success in the profession.

As for the ones who don't even know the basics, who do crappy work and use crappy equipment, they will not succeed. This group is a shrinking minority of professionals in the game - especially since the industry has matured. Nearly every region has enough good contractors to provide good examples of the art.

To think that the bad apples are ruinous to the profession is ridiculous. Especially in this day of all the online tools and venues for sniffing out the best from the worst in every service profession.

Lately it's been painful to follow the posts in lawnsite - that's why I haven't posted as often as before. I honor those who are 100% dedicated to the profession and I honor those who only do a few jobs a year. I respect those who spend years mastering the profession and I respect those who get hired to do only one job (and do their best to do it well).

Why make this a restrictive profession? Why put up barriers to entry?

For those with a Libertarian leaning, read this excellent report on the effects of occupational licensing.
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  #34  
Old 07-29-2015, 09:09 AM
The real Mike Gambino The real Mike Gambino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveparrott View Post
Jim, thank you! It's refreshing to hear your comments that (I believe) represent the spirit of the landscape lighting industry.

In complete opposition to most of the posts in this thread, I say that one of the great things about our industry is that it's fairly easy to learn the basics. A one-day seminar can get you started. That's certainly enough time to learn the basic safety guidelines. And, for companies like VOLT, every product includes a safety sheet (a UL requirement).

Unlike the electrical profession, there are very few barriers to entry into this profession. Anyone with the desire and passion can enter the profession - this has been a huge boon to the ones who love the landscape and want to see it beautiful at night. They can (in most regions) safely enter the profession without the burden of getting a license. I've always loved this aspect - an artistic profession should be available to artists - and no one should force them to become electricians.

What you do after the basic training is to begin a process of learning that can last a lifetime. Mentoring, experimentation, further trainings - it's totally up to the individual. All these things add value to that person's business, and that value equates with success in the profession.

As for the ones who don't even know the basics, who do crappy work and use crappy equipment, they will not succeed. This group is a shrinking minority of professionals in the game - especially since the industry has matured. Nearly every region has enough good contractors to provide good examples of the art.

To think that the bad apples are ruinous to the profession is ridiculous. Especially in this day of all the online tools and venues for sniffing out the best from the worst in every service profession.

Lately it's been painful to follow the posts in lawnsite - that's why I haven't posted as often as before. I honor those who are 100% dedicated to the profession and I honor those who only do a few jobs a year. I respect those who spend years mastering the profession and I respect those who get hired to do only one job (and do their best to do it well).

Why make this a restrictive profession? Why put up barriers to entry?

For those with a Libertarian leaning, read this excellent report on the effects of occupational licensing.
Pretty sad that you minimize the profession with your comments such as a one day seminar is enough to get you started. Why would I be surprised though as your company supplies product to anyone without qualification including home owners who may have never driven a nail in the wall or held a tool in their hands in a lifetime. That leaflet in the box is no guarantee of a safe installation. I agree with one thing you said in this post that it is very painful to read.
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  #35  
Old 07-29-2015, 09:39 AM
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To Michael Donovan: It is difficult to remain "civil" when one poster exhibits an unlimited level of arrogance by minimizing anyone else's opinion. His self-centered posts have dominated this forum for the month of July.
(Reminds me of the infamous "Hot Shot Kid" back in the early days.)
From the business standpoint of Lawnsite, all of his posts may appear that there is a lot of activity on the Lighting Forum. But I suspect there are many regulars who have posted little or not at all because of his presence and his dismissive attitude.
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  #36  
Old 07-29-2015, 09:51 AM
emby emby is offline
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I think my point was misinterpreted. With all the bad scenarios that Jim shared proves that many who have gone to these one day seminars have not received enough knowledge to start for clients. There are rules in the NEC code that everyone must abide by. This has been put in place for safety and the reason why they most likely developed these codes have been shared in many threads within this forum.
Why have some states made it mandatory for licensed individuals to perform the actual installations? Because those individules have had 5000 hrs of apprenticing and wrote an exam to obtain a license that has educated them on safety of electrical installations. How can you possibly state that a one day seminar is enough to get you started. I'm not talking about design, I'm referring to the engineering of lighting systems.
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  #37  
Old 07-29-2015, 11:21 AM
emby emby is offline
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My suggestions and why I contribute to these threads are to stimulate thoughts and promote conversations from everybody that is here. I am certainly not stating that my thoughts are the only way but I like to think that some of them will help others and the industry in general. Am I right all the time, certainly not...

This particular thread is about the NEC codes pertaining to low voltage lighting systems. Codes, good and bad installation methods have been discussed that have informed everybody about worst case scenarios such as systems burning up or worse starting a clients home on fire.

I look at these bad scenarios from a safety perspective. Why did these happen and how did they happen. If the installer followed the rules and applicable codes and had it inspected by an electrical inspector it would have never happened. The inspector does not need to know about design but what he or she is educated and trained on is the engineering of these lighting systems. (because he or she is already an electrician)
Proper wire gauge, components that are UL and CSA listed, proper wiring methods etc.

Did this installer go to a one day seminar? Possibly or maybe not but the important thing is that the contributors here are sharing their thoughts on how this can be prevented. In my opinion expressing that these one day seminars will get you started is wrong.
At least the AOLP has developed curriculum and testing for installation methods and I can tell you its not just a four hour session. I don't think that manufacturers or distributors should be even offering these useless seminars. They in fact should be pointing interested parties to the correct organizations to be properly educated. Thats the trouble with this whole industry is that some groups and manufacturers have pulled it together and started educating properly and then you have others that are only engaged in this for financial gains and not being friendly or reaching out to others to help better the industry.
At the end of the day rather than ramble on I just wish that all of us could come together and make something good happen.

Expressing thoughts that these one day seminars, and come to us as we will show you how to become a ***pro installer is absolutely ridiculous in my professional opinion. Its outrageous and a desperate attempt to get out of debt. Finance can be stressful so it appears......

This is not directed at any particular person or organizations etc. so don't get your panties in a knot.....
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  #38  
Old 07-29-2015, 12:57 PM
steveparrott steveparrott is offline
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Just to clarify, I stated "A one-day seminar can get you started. That's certainly enough time to learn the basic safety guidelines."

I'm not saying that you can walk out of that seminar and take on your first job (though many did get their start this way).

I'm also not saying that you can bypass any of the regional or federal laws that govern this work.

My only point is that the basic safety guidelines are fairly simple. They can fit on a single page.

You can rant and rave about the plethora of electrical codes that every landscape lighting installer should know, but half of the states don't require installers to know any of them. They have the opinion that anything under 30 volts is safe so no licensing, no inspections, no worries.

You can disagree with that approach, but it's pretty much settled that no one gets injured from contact with low voltage current. Yes, there are fire hazards, and preventing those is mostly common-sense and easily-learned precautions - and is covered on product UL sheets.

Finally, you accuse me of minimizing the profession for saying there's a simple way to get started. That's ridiculous. When you want to create barriers to entry and restrict the profession by unnecessary licensing, that's what would minimize the profession.
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  #39  
Old 07-29-2015, 01:20 PM
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Michael J. Donovan Michael J. Donovan is online now
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I think Steves comments and a few others sum up what most are/may be feeling.

I am closing this one out for now and we can all move on

thanks
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