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  #111  
Old 09-03-2014, 07:18 AM
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Wet_Boots Wet_Boots is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Wolfarth View Post
I am sorry I was not clear. The DV Valve is not at all compatible with two-wire systems. Do not ever use them. I was trying to say before that even though it may be found to work from time to time, it is not reliable over time and it most likely will fail. Maybe some have experience that suggests this is not as absolute as I am stating here. But Rain Bird does not recommend DV valve solenoids to be used on a two-wire system ever.
Does this incompatibility extend to the devices, like the Doubler or Expander that exist to overcome a wiring fault/deficiency, where one station wire in the field is used to actuate more than one zone?
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  #112  
Old 09-03-2014, 10:53 AM
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Ron Wolfarth Ron Wolfarth is offline
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The Doubler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wet_Boots View Post
Does this incompatibility extend to the devices, like the Doubler or Expander that exist to overcome a wiring fault/deficiency, where one station wire in the field is used to actuate more than one zone?
Good question. I don't know. (I have not heard of the Expander, but I assume it is a similar device.)
I personally have not heard complaints from customers on these products. This makes me think there is a chance they are okay, but Rain Bird has not expressed an opinion on this.

I don't know exactly how they accomplish what they do. I assume they pass through the full power on the circuit to the first valve and then toggle to the next valve on the next cycle. If so, I imagine they have a chance of working. For a more definitive answer, contact the manufacturer. I would think they have done the necessary testing to show they work on the valves on the market. Since DV is the top selling valve, I am sure they would have tested it.
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  #113  
Old 09-17-2014, 11:23 AM
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Ron Wolfarth Ron Wolfarth is offline
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Request: What Valve Electrical Data is Needed?

We have tested again our residential valve products for electrical characteristics to publish. It has been many years since we last did this on DV and ASVF valves and it is time. There have been some changes to the HV solenoid and that drove some change, but the DV and ASVF have not changed at all.

Is the information we publish adequate? For what purpose is the information needed? If more is needed, what need does it serve? How often is it used? Is there information presented that is not used at all?
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  #114  
Old 09-17-2014, 12:01 PM
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How much variation do you get in measurement results? Some of what shows up in field measurements surprises me a bit, especially any variations in DC resistance measurements, based on an assumption that each solenoid will have the same amount of wire wound up in it.

It probably asks for trouble, but there might be some point in having a "must operate" minimum applied voltage, for a solenoid, but any extra info can get too "techy" if you also include supply pressures in any "must operate" info. (this last refers to the original S24B solenoid from Weathermatic being described as working on 12 Volts DC, provided supply pressure didn't exceed 75 psi)
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  #115  
Old 09-17-2014, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Wet_Boots View Post
How much variation do you get in measurement results? Some of what shows up in field measurements surprises me a bit, especially any variations in DC resistance measurements, based on an assumption that each solenoid will have the same amount of wire wound up in it.

It probably asks for trouble, but there might be some point in having a "must operate" minimum applied voltage, for a solenoid, but any extra info can get too "techy" if you also include supply pressures in any "must operate" info. (this last refers to the original S24B solenoid from Weathermatic being described as working on 12 Volts DC, provided supply pressure didn't exceed 75 psi)
Just going from memory, we get less than 5% difference from coil to coil. Actually, I think it is even less. Of course, we test them in a lab, not installed in the ground, so we remove all other sources of variation. I don't recall that we see any more or less variation with AC versus DC solenoids. The amount of windings on any given solenoid varies only slightly. We wind these pretty quickly and the machinery has some variation, I am sure. I am also sure there is variation depending on the quality of the connections inside the solenoid.

We offer on the website maximum wire length runs based on different operating pressures. (This was in the catalog for residential/light commercial valves until very recently. It is still in the 2014 catalog for commercial valves. That will possibly go to the website in 2015.) We could add there the minimum voltage. I forget if minimum voltage requirements change with different operating pressures. The 24 VAC listing shown in the catalog is nominal. Actual minimum voltage required is less than this. We show this so users know to not apply 120 volts. If we show minimum voltages, of course, I will make this all clear in the data. And since it will be on the website, it will be easier and faster to change to improve accuracy, clarity and completeness.
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  #116  
Old 09-17-2014, 01:06 PM
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The main reason for max and min requirements are geared toward design and troubleshooting Ron. Albeit the majority of systems are designed on the installers past practices and the favorite brand of test equipment is "NONE", a few hardcases believe that working smart is still the way to go.

Personally I would like to see more hydraulic / electrical test results made available for all products. I read my field testing results like a map, using the results to lead me in the proper direction.
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  #117  
Old 09-17-2014, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by 1idejim View Post
The main reason for max and min requirements are geared toward design and troubleshooting Ron. Albeit the majority of systems are designed on the installers past practices and the favorite brand of test equipment is "NONE", a few hardcases believe that working smart is still the way to go.

Personally I would like to see more hydraulic / electrical test results made available for all products. I read my field testing results like a map, using the results to lead me in the proper direction.
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Thank you. Your comments fit my perception perfectly. This is good confirmation.
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  #118  
Old 09-17-2014, 01:36 PM
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Minimum must-operate voltages would increase with pressure, according to one data page I stumbled upon some years back. (sorry, I never bookmarked it, being these were 'standard' 3/4x20 thread solenoids used in pneumatic control applications, with even more data that made reference to the size of the orifice where the plunger seated))
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  #119  
Old 09-22-2014, 06:01 PM
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Ron Wolfarth Ron Wolfarth is offline
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Changes to Electrical Specifications Provided on Website and Catalog

Wet_Boots asked above how much variation there is in solenoid testing results. I replied that I thought it was small, less than 5%. I was off. For example, in-rush current on the DV valve is an average of 0.189 amps. In our recent testing of 10 solenoids, here are the results when tested with 60 Hz AC and 80 psi:
In-rush current: 0.180 amps to 0.201 amps. Variation of 11% of the average.
Holding current: 0.117 amps to 0.133 amps. Variation of 13% of the average.
Minimum activation voltage: 15.75 V to 16.75. Variation of 6% of the average of 16.0 V.

At 150 psi, the results are:
In-rush current: 0.200 amps to 0.217 amps. Variation of 8% of the average of 0.207.
Holding current: 0.131 amps to 0.143 amps. Variation of 13% of the average 0.137.
Minimum activation voltage: 18.0V to 19.0. Variation of 5% of the average of 18.4 V.

Wet_Boots also mentioned that he had seen other information that current and voltage requirements increase with water pressure and that it also had something to do with the size of the port or 'drain' that the solenoid plunger rests on. The increase in power requirement related to an increase in water pressure is indicated in the results I show above.

Here is my non-electrical engineering explanation of why the power requirement is related to water pressure and the size of the dump port. Think of a bath tub of water with a rubber stopper in the drain. When the tub is empty, a loosely fitting stopper is easily lifted out of the drain. When the tub is full, it takes more effort to lift the same stopper. This is because the weight of water pressing on it also has to be lifted until the stopper is completely off the drain. The larger the drain, the larger the column of water is sitting on the drain and the heavier it is. And, the deeper the water, the heavier the column of water that is sitting on the drain.

The same thing happens in the solenoid. The plunger is the stopper and the hole it sits on is the drain. The larger the hole, the more force is exerted on the plunger because the larger area of the drain has a larger, heavier column of water sitting on it.

The higher the water pressure or 'feet of head,' the higher and heavier the column of water is that is sitting on the plunger or 'drain.'

('Feet of head' is the height of a column of water needed to create a certain water pressure. 10 psi is generated by 23.1 feet of head because it takes a column of water 1 square inch in size 23.1 feet high to weigh 10 pounds. All 10 pounds are resting on the one square inch that is the bottom of this column of water. So, it generates 10 pounds per square inch.)

The solenoid coil has to generate a stronger magnetic field to have the power to be able to pull that plunger off the 'drain.' More power is required to do that when the water pressure is increased or the size of the drain hole is increased.
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