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  #41  
Old 10-17-2007, 01:25 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Let me get one thing straight here. I applaud you and anyone else who makes any attempt at being organic. It most certainly is better than the conventional alternative. That being said, my original posts were not provocative in any way, it was you who came after me for posting a dissenting opinion on the goals of an organic program. So if your going to resort to personal insults then I guess the gloves come off.

You can accuse me of being a left wing crackpot (FYI I have no political affiliations or interest in politics), but the "problem" is not JUST fertilizers and pesticides, it fundamentally is how we approach building landscapes. You also accuse me of not seeing the big picture (or the "truth"), but in fact I spent a considerable amount of time and money educating myself so I could see the big picture. One "truth" I do see here is your inability to grasp it.

The solution to the "problem" is not simply replacing conventional inputs with organics. The whole concept and design of residential/commercial landscapes needs to be rethought. The only viable solution that I see to this fundamental problem with landscapes is to shift focus towards creating environmentally friendly sustainable landscapes. One approach is to consider our landscapes as habitats, not as a "status symbol", or something to fill up some open space, or an initially cheap way to cover bare soil (turf). Xeriscaping (if done properly) is one way to create a sustainable landscape.

Guess what Gerry, the EPA has a site dedicated to creating sustainable landscapes, so don't take my word on it, unless you consider them left wing crackpots too.

Environmental Protection Agency:

GreenScapes Program

And yet more left wing fanatics attempting "the old slight of hand and misdirection".

NRCS (Natural Resources Conservation Service):

Improving Urban Landscapes

University of Minnesota:

Sustainable Urban Landscape Information Series (SULIS)

Oregon State University Extension Service:

Plant Selection for Sustainable Landscapes

Building Green:

Natural Landscaping: Native Plants and Planting Strategies for Green Development

What the heck, why not throw in a couple for habitats...

National Wildlife Federation:

Create a Certified Wildlife Habitat

University of Maine:

Principles for Creating a Backyard Wildlife Habitat

State of Illinois:

Creating Habitats and Homes For Illinois Wildlife

The "agenda" here, if there is one, is an attempt to replace (to some degree) what we have destroyed in our infinite wisdom (or is that ignornace).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
I was right, you are either totally clueless of the truth or refuse to see the truth.
What is the truth, your narrow minding version of it? Given many of your posts in this thread are cut and paste, it is difficult extracting your words from someone else's. Also given some of your "facts" are pulled from sites that DO have an agenda, I question them, as should everyone.

Let us recap some of Gerry's indisputable facts/truths for everyone to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
Any disturbing the soil either by digging or tilling, compaction, construction practices, removal of top soil, site preparation, and leaving soil bear can cause damage,
whoops -> contradiction:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
Core aeration is nothing like tilling. It does not destroy soil fungi or earthworms as tilling does. Period.
Which is it? As I warned, be careful when speaking in absolutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
While it's true that nature sustained the soil before man, we also had herds of animals crossing the prairies, leaving behind their manure, urine and dead bodies to feed the soil to make it self sustaining.
This is nothing short of laughable. It is obvious you need to review how soils are formed.

Factors Of Soil Formation. A System of Quantitative Pedology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
Before I get accused of taking credit for something I found elsewhere on the net, let me post my source of this information:
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/lawben.asp

And these are not opinions, but rather facts. Facts are stubborn things!
Oh my, nice example of a list of unsubstantiated "facts" distributed by a company in the business of selling lawn maintenance equipment. And you speak of agenda's. You do you understand what a credible source is, right?

BTW, nice work cut & paste commando. Gee, sure is easy to simply cut and paste someone else's words in order to give the illusion of intelligence. Here's another example of your cut & paste wizardry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
A fundamental dilemma in pest control is that tillage and insecticide application have enormous effects on non- target species in the food web. Intense land use (especially monoculture, tillage, and pesticides) depletes soil diversity. As total soil diversity declines, predator populations drop sharply and the possibility for subsequent pest outbreaks increases.
Taken verbatim from The Soil Biology Primer - Chapter 7 Section Control Pests

While you did provide a link to the home page of the primer, you did not indicate in any way you had quoted it. If your going to quote a source, at the VERY least you should give some indication of the quoted content (quotes, italics, bbcode quote) and a DIRECT link to the source content. Your indirect reference, which was presented in a way that has no direct correlation to the content you quoted, doesn't cut it. I wonder how many more of these exist in your posts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
...fungi organisms keeps the soil from compaction
This is a "fact"? If I drive a 1000 pound lawn tractor on my lawn are the "fungal organisms" going to prevent soil compaction? Perhaps you need to review the laws of physics because your "fact" just violated them, that is, unless your maintaining that soils are incompressible.

You know Gerry, there is ALOT more to a landscape than turf, and there are more factors involved in creating a healthy soil than just AACT and protein meals. In fact you have stated more than once that AACT and protein meals are all you need to build a healthy soil. What about the importance of spatial distribution of SOM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
I also wanted to point out that using AACT is not some kind of magic potion nor a silver bullet.
Correct, and with respect to soils, it is a shortcut to the preferred method.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
People who think that AACT is some kind of gimick just have no understanding of soil biology, the soil foodweb.
Another unsubstantiated "fact", not to mention the predominant use of compost teas is foliar disease control and secondarily as a soil drench. The "fact" of the matter is Gerry, there is no conclusive or replicable scientific evidence to support your claims.

So how about we provide some real information on compost teas so the readers of this thread can make an informed decision, not one based on marketing hype. If you only choose to read a couple of these links, then the two from Washington State University would be my recommendation.

Washington State University:

Compost Tea: Miracle Cure or Marketing Gimmick?

The Myth of Compost Tea Revisited

National Organic Standards Board:

Compost Tea Task Force - Final Report

University of Vermont:

Compost Tea To Suppress Plant Disease

Ohio State University:

Research Project Report for the Ohio Vegetable and Small Fruit Research and Development Program

Oregon State University:

OSU/Lane County Extension Service Compost Specialist Tea Trial

Should I move on to some of your other "facts"? You throw around the terms "facts" and "truths", however I believe the general consensus among the scientific community is the dynamics of soil ecology/biology are not very well understood. Perhaps you know something they don't? If you want, I'll pick apart your statements to the point where the majority your "facts" will be called into question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
And I'm not selling any product or services, so another item you're way off base on, again!
I simply pointed out that based on your posts it would appear YOU have an agenda (eg. pushing a product) by coming back to the same topic over and over again like a broken record -> Turf, AACT, "protein" meals -> Turf, AACT, "protein" meals -> Turf, AACT, "protein" meals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
I'm not an advocate of sustainability outside of using organic practices only and how that assists in sustainability.
And that would make you a hypocrite. How can you be an advocate of organic practices without also advocating sustainability? Do you realize how absurd a statement that is? So basically your like Al Gore, preaching about global warming while driving around in a Hummer, or in your case, preaching use of organics while promoting continued use of resource intensive, unsustainable landscapes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
But the big problem is with the use synthetic chemicals on their soils and I do have a problem with that. You seem to overlook the real problem here.
What is the real problem here Gerry? Is it use of environmentally damaging products, or landscape designs and industries that promote the use of those products? If the landscapes we build have no use for those products to begin with, why would there be any reason or need to produce them? Furthermore, where are the vast majority of those products used? Does TURF ring a bell!

The fundamental problem is with continued construction and use of unsustainable landscapes. If you cannot see this you are truly blind.

Some more links for those interested.

NC State University:

Sustainable Practices for Vegetable Production in the South

University of California:

Soil Fertility Management for Organic Crops

Soil Management and Soil Quality for Organic Crops

Statewide IPM Program, Agriculture and Natural Resources, University of California

Environmental Protection Agency:

EPA: Integrated Pest Management (IPM) Principles

University of Vermont SERA-17:

Referenced Publications From SERA-17

Colorado State University:

Xeriscaping: Creative Landscaping

Organic Materials as Nitrogen Fertilizers

Texas A&M University:

Landscape Water Conservation...Xeriscape

State of California:

Coyote Creek Watershed Management Plan. Green Infrastructure Site Design Guidelines

The following are articles/studies published in Applied Soil Ecology from Science Direct

You need to go to Elsevier and navigate to the Science Direct Site using their link in order to gain guest access to their holdings. The below articles (full text with guest access) are from Applied Soil Ecology Volume 35, Issue 1 (pp. 1-260 (January 2007)) may be of interest to some. The guest access may or may not work, but you can still read the abstracts.

Interaction among free-living N-fixing bacteria isolated from Drosera villosa var. villosa and AM fungi (Glomus clarum) in rice (Oryza sativa)

Influence of organic and mineral amendments on microbial soil properties and processes

Effects of compost addition on extra-radical growth of arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi in Acacia tortilis ssp. raddiana savanna in a pre-Saharan area

Population dynamics of Trichoderma in fumigated and compost-amended soil and on strawberry roots
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  #42  
Old 10-17-2007, 01:45 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
Now I am in favor of using DDT in 3rd world countries where Malaria kills millions of people every year. Of course, we know now that we used too much DDT in the past where only a very small amount is needed to be effective. However, I don't see the need for it's use here in the states.
Your kidding right? Does the term bio-accumulation mean anything to you? I suppose you also support dumping toxic wastes into our water supplies, just as long as it is only "small amounts'.
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  #43  
Old 10-17-2007, 02:06 PM
Gerry Miller Gerry Miller is offline
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Location: Midlothian, IL zone 5
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Talk about cut and pasting, good grief. Unfortunately, most people don't care about sustainable landscaping. It doesn't fit into the lifestyle they want or what is in demand.

Once again I go back to what I have been talking about is what is the 'big picture' is home lawn care and the use of synthetic chemical fertilizers that homeowners over use, in particular pesticides, or rather over use of them. The millions of people who do have lawns and misuse chemicals is the big picture, not some idealistic landscape that few people own or even want. So the current problem, not some fantasy vision of sustainable landscaping, is to deal with the current problem that exists.

All I have talked about is organic lawn care practices, nothing more. You choose to twist thing I say out of context to try and make some absurd point. Turf is not the problem. All the advantages I listed about turf you say is not the truth but part of some agenda of big business. Give me a break. If you don't like the facts, you try to change them.

You keep twisting things I say to fit your rants, you call me a hypocrate???


You have no clue to the advantages of using AACT, you think it's some kind of 'miracle cure'....where do you come up with this stuff??? You think it makes a difference to have a chipper in your yard for large branches that may fall???? What??? What kind of sense does that make???? None, like most of your post. Look where you get you information from on the AACT?? Someone who didn't have a clue how to make it properly and has been subject to ridicule for her lack of knowledge, much like yourself. There is plenty of data to back up the benefits of AACT. You just need to look at the right place, like Soilfoodweb.com Your posts and comments just show that you dont' know much about soil biology.

Last edited by Michael J. Donovan; 10-19-2007 at 04:01 PM. Reason: name calling
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  #44  
Old 10-17-2007, 02:07 PM
Gerry Miller Gerry Miller is offline
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Location: Midlothian, IL zone 5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Your kidding right? Does the term bio-accumulation mean anything to you? I suppose you also support dumping toxic wastes into our water supplies, just as long as it is only "small amounts'.
So you would rather have millions of people die instead of the proper use of this chemical? Get real. More absurdities!

Last edited by Gerry Miller; 10-17-2007 at 02:11 PM.
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  #45  
Old 10-17-2007, 02:14 PM
tadhussey tadhussey is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Redmond, WA
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Couldn't help but chime in...

I realized this thread was originally on micorrhizal inocculants, wow, it's really gone off to other topics.

I was reading the post on AACT, and how it is unsubstantiated in laboratory tests. I hear this statement quite frequently, and it always leads back to Dr. Linda Chalker-Scott's article on compost tea. However, when you dig a little deeper, you will discover a couple of interesting facts.

Yes, Dr. Scott did review a bunch of studies relating to compost tea. Have you taken the time to go and look at these studies? Are they really using AACT? The answer is definitively "NO!" Many did not measure DO levels consistently through the brew. They did not use appropriate inputs (ie. compost and nutrients). They did not provide adequate aeration within the brewer. So did their version of compost tea work in suppressing disease? Of course not! That's hardly a shocking find.

Let's face it, everyone who works in this industry has an agenda. These "university studies" need funding and their research money has to come from somewhere. Dr. Chalker-Scott has a long standing academic feud with Dr. Ingham. Both can produce data to support their claims. Sometimes you have to look at more than just the numbers they throw at you or the fancy letters after their names.

I agree that there is not enough scientific literature out there regarding compost tea. There are a large number of successful field trials though, and people like Gerry who have learned about the soil food web and seen wonderful results in their own yards. There are currently a good study being put together by I believe the University of Maryland that should be published in the next year or so.

As for published articles supporting the use of microbes in disease suppression or remediation, I will be including them in my next post (this one was too long).

~Tad
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  #46  
Old 10-17-2007, 02:16 PM
tadhussey tadhussey is offline
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I realize not all of these are published studies, but they all relate to the topics we have been discussing and are in support of the use of beneficial microbes.

References:

Abawi, G.S. and Widmer, T.L. (2000). Impact of soil health management practices on soilborne pathogens, nematodes, and root diseases of vegetable crops. Applied Soil Ecology. 15:37-47.

Abbasi, P.A., Al-Dahmani, J., Sahin, H.A., Hoitink, A.J. And Miller, S.A. (2002). Effect of compost amendments on disease severity and yield of tomato in conventional and organic production sysems. Plant Disease. 86:156-161.

Albiach, R., Canet, R., Pomares, F. and Ingelmo, F. (2000). Microbial biomass content and enzymatic activities after application of organic amendments to a horticultural soil. Bioresource Technology. 75:43-48.

Adl, Sina M., Coleman, David C., Read, Frederick. (2006). Slow recovery of soil biodiversity in sany loam soils of Georgia after 25 years of no-tillage management. Agriculture, Ecosystems and Environment. 114: 323-334.

Aldahmani, J.H., Abbasi, P.A., Hoitink, H.A.J., miller, S.A. (2005) Reduction of bacterial leaf spot severity on radish, lettuce, and tomato plants grown in compost-amended potting mixes. Can. J. Plant Pathol. 27:186-193

Amaranthus, M. and Steinfeld, D.(2005). Arbuscular mycorrhizal inoculation following biocide treatment improves Calocedrus decurrens survival and growth in n ursery and outplanting sites. USDA Forest Service Proceedings RMRS-P-35:103-108

Atiyeh, R.M., Edwards, C.A., Subler, S. and Metzger, J.D. (2001). Pig manure vermicompost as a component of a horticultural bedding plant medium: effects on physiochemical properties and plant growth. Bioresource Technology. 78:11-20.

Atkinson, C.F., Jones, D.D. and Gauthier, J.J. (1996). Biodegradability and microbial activities during composting of poultry litter. Poultry Science. 75:608-617.

Atkinson, C.F., Jones, D.D. and Gauthier, J.J. (1996). Putative anaerobic activity in aerated composts. Journal of Industrial Microbiology. 16:182-188.

Bailey, K.L. and Lazarovits, G. (2003). Suppressing soil-borne diseases with residue management and organic amendments. Soil Tillage Research. 72:169-180.

Barker, A.V. and Bryson, G. M.(2002). Bioremediation of heavy metals and organic toxicants by composting. The Scientific World Journal. 2: 407-420.

Baur, A.J. (1934). Effect of composting on the chemical and biological changes in peat and wheat straw. Journal of the American Society of Agronomy. 820-830.
Bell, T., Newman, J.A., Silverman, B.W., Turner, S.L. And Lilley, A.K. (2005). The contribution of species richness and composition to bacterial services. Nature. 436:1157-1160
Black, B.L., Swartz, H.J., Millner, P. and Steiner, P. (2003) Pre-plant crop rotation and compost amendments for improving establishment of red raspberry. Journal American Pomological Society. 57:149-156.

Borrero, C., Trillas, I. M., Ordovais, J., Tello, J. C., and Avile, M..(2004). Predictive factors for the suppression of fusarium wilt of tomato in plant growth media Phytopathology. 94: 1094-1101..

Brito-Alvarez, M.A., Gagne, S. and Antoun, H. (1995). Effect of compost on rhizosphere microflora of the tomato and on the incidence of plant growth-promoting rhizobacteria. Applied and Environmental Microbiology. 61:194-199.

Brown, M.W. and Toworski, T. (2004). Pest management benefits of compost mulch in apple orchards. Agriculture, Ecosystems & Environment. {Online}.

Boulter, J.I., Boland, G.J., and Trevors, J.T. (2002). Evaluation of composts for suppression of dollar spot(Sclerotinia homoeocarpa) of turfgrass. Plant Disease. 86:405-410.

Boulter, J.I., Boland, G.J. and Trevors, J.T. (2002). Assessment of compost for suppression of Fussarium Patch (Microdochium nivale) and Typhula Blight (Typhula ishikariensis) snow molds of turfgrass. Biological Control. 25:162-172.

Brown, P.E. and Smith, F.B. (1928). The production of artificial manure from oats straw under control conditions. Journal of the American society of Agronomy. 310-322.

Boulter, J.I., Boland, G.J. and Trevors, J.T. (2002). Valuation of composts for suppression of dollar spot (Sclerotinia homeocarpa) of turfgrass. Plant Disease. 86:405-410.
Burke, A. (2006). Greenwashing and the debate on pesticide use. Classic Nursery & landscape Company.

Carpenter-Boggs, L., Kennedy, A.C. and Reganold, J.P. (1998). Use of phospholipid fatty acids and carbon source utilization patterns to track microbial community succession in developing compost. Applied and Environmental Microbiology. 64:4062-4064.

Carpenter-Boggs, L., Kennedy, A.C. and Reganold, J.P. (2000). Organic and biodynamic management effects on soil biology. Soil Science Society of America Journal. 64:1651-1659.

Carpenter-Boggs, L., Kennedy, A.C. and Reganold, J.P. (2000). Effects of biodynamic preparations on compost development. Biological Agriculture & Horticulture: an International Journal. 17:313-328.

Chaoui, H.I., Zibilske, L.M. and Ohno, T. (2003). Effects of earthworm casts and compost on soil microbial activity and plant nutrient availability. Soil Biology and Biochemistry. 35:295-302.

Churchill, D.B., Alderman, S.C., Mueller-Warrant, G.W., Elliot, L.F. and Bilsland, D.M. (1996). Survival of weed seeds and seed pathogen propagates in composted grass seed straw. Applied Engineering in Agriculture. 12:57-63.

Cole, M. A. ed. (1998). An analysis of composting as an environmental remediation technology. EPA530-R-98-008. www.epa.gov/osw

Cole, M.A. (1997). Innovative uses of compost: bioremediation and pollution prevention. EPA530-F-97-042. www.epa.gov/osw

Cole, M.A. (1997). Innovative uses of compost: composting of soils contaminated by explosives. EPA530-F-97-045. www.epa.gov/osw

Conservation Institute. ( 2005). Dead zones. Conservation Science Institute, www.consevationinstitute.org/deadzones.htm

La Times-Washington post News Service. (1997) Dead zone woes. Lubbock Avalanche Journal, www.lubbockonline.com/news/092997/deadzone.htm

Deacon, J. (2005). Microbial world: thermophilic microorganisms. Institute of Cell and Molecular Biology, University of Edinburgh.

Dees, P.M. and Ghiorse, W.C. (2001). Microbial diversity in hot synthetic compost as revealed by PCR-amplified rRNA sequences from cultivated isolates and extracted DNA. FEMS Microbiology Ecology. 35:207-216.

Dissanayake, N. and Hoy, J.W. (1999). Organic material soil amendment effects on root rot and sugarcane growth and characterization of the materials. Plant Disease. 83:1039-1046.

Egelkraut, T.M., Kissel, D.E. and Cabrera, M.L. (2000). Effect of soil texture on nitrogen mineralized from cotton residues and compost. Journal of Environmental Quality. 29:1518-1522.

Eiland, F., Klamer, M., Lind, A.M., Leth, M. and Baath, E. (2001). Influence of C/N ratio on chemical and microbial composition during long term composting of straw. Microbial Ecology. 41:272-280.

Elorrieta, M.A., Suarez-Estrella, F., Lopez, M.J., Vargas-Garcia, M.C. and Moreno, J. (2003). Survival of phytopathogenic bacteria during waste composting. Agriculture, Ecosystems & Environment. 96:141-146.

Deacon, J. (2005). Microbial world: thermophilic microorganisms. Institute of Cell and Molecular Biology, University of Edinburgh.

Fermor, T.R., Smith, J.F. and Spencer, D.M. (1979). The microflora of experimental mushroom composts. Journal of Horticultural Science. 54:137-147.

Fogarty,A.M., and Tuovinen, O. H. (1991). Microbial degradation of pesticides in yard waste composting. Microbiological Reviews.55:225-233

Fokemma, N.J. (1993). Opportunities and problems of control of foliar pathogens with microorganisms. Pesticide Science. 37:411-416.

Forge, T.A., Hogue, E., Neilsen, G. and Neilsen, D. (2003). Effects of organic mulches on soil microfauna in the root zone of apple: implications for nutrient fluxes and functional diversity of the soil food web. Applied Soil Ecology. 22:39-54.

Galli, E., Pasetti, L., Fiorelli, F. and Tomati, U. (1997). Olive-mill wastewater composting: microbiological aspects. Waste Management & Research. 15:323-330.
Glanville, T.D., Persyn, R.A., Richard, T.L., Laflen, J.M.and Dixon, P.M. (2004). Environmental effects of applying composted organics to new highway embankments: Part 2, water quality. Tarnsactions of the American Society of Agricultural Engineers. 47:471-478.

Gunadi, B., Edwards, C.A. and Arancon, N.Q. Changes in trophic structure of soil arthropods after the application of vermicomposts. European Journal of Soil Biology. 38:161-165.

Hadas, A., Kautsky, L. and Portnoy, R. (1996). Mineralization of composted manure and microbial dynamics in soil affected by long-term nitrogen management. Soil Biology and Biochemistry. 28:733-738.

Hassen, A., Belguith, K., Jedidi, N., Cherif, S., Cherif, M. and Boudabous, A. (2001). Microbial characterization during composting of municipal solid waste. Bioresource Technology. 80:217-225.

Heerden, I. van, Cronje, C., Swart, S.H. and Kotze, J.M. (2002). Microbial, chemical and physical aspects of citrus waste composting. Bioresource Technology. 81:71-76.

Hinsinger, P. (2001). Bioavailability of soil inorganic P in th rhizosphere as affecred by root-induced chemical changes: a review. Plant and Soil 237: 173-195

Insam, H., Armor, K., Renner, M. and Crepaz, C. (1996). Changes in functional abilities of the microbial community during composting of manure. Microbial Ecology. 31:77-87.
Hoitink, H.A., Inbar, Y. and Boehm, M.J. (1991). Status of compost-amended potting mixes naturally suppresive to soilborne diseases of floricultural crops. Plant Disease. 75:869-873

Hutchinson, D. (2003). Brewing up. Grower. May:23-24

Ingham, E.R., and Rollins, C.A. (2006). Adding biology. Nature Technologies, LLC.

Janzen, R.A., Cook, F.D. and McGill, W.B. (1995). Compost extract added to microcosms may simulate community-level controls on soil microorganisms involved in element cycling. Soil Biology and Biochemistry. 27:181-188.

Janzen, R.A. and McGill, W.B. (1995). Community-level interactions control proliferation of Azospirillium brasilense (Cd.) in microcosms. Soil Biology and Biochemistry. 27:189-196.

Keeling, A.A., Cook, J.A. and Wilcox, A. (1998). Effects of carbohydrate application on diazotroph populations and nitrogen availability in grass swards established in garden waste compost. Bioresource Technology. 66:89-97.

Kim, K.D., Nemec, S. and Musson, G. (1997). Control of Phytophthora root and crown rot of bell pepper with composts and soil amendments in the greenhouse. Applied Soil Ecology. 5:169-179.

Kim, K.D., Nemec, S. and Musson, G. (1997). Effects of composts and soil amendments on soil microflora and Phytophthora root and crown rot of bell pepper. Crop Protection. 16:165-172.

Klamer, M. and Erland, B. (1998). Microbial community dynamics during composting of straw material studied using phospholipid fatty acid analysis. FEMS Microbiology Ecology. 27:9-20.

Kuepper, G. (2005). Thrips management alternatives in the field. Posted on ATTRA Pest Manegement Technical note. www.attra.org/attra-pub/thrips.html

La Times-Washington post News Service. (1997) Dead zone woes. Lubbock Avalanche Journal, www.lubbockonline.com/news/092997/deadzone.htm

Linderman, R.G., and Davis, E.A. (2001). Vesicular arbuscular mycorrhiza and plant growth response to soil amendment with composted grape pomace or it's water extract. Hortechnology. 11: 446-450

Lodha, S., Sharma, S.K. and Aggarwal, R.K. (2002). Inactivation of Macrophomina phaseolina propagules during composting and effect of composts on dry root rot severity and on seed yield of clusterbean. European Journal of Plant Pathology. 108:253-261.

Loschinkol, C., and Boehm, M.J. (2001). Composted biosolids incorporation improves turfgrass establishment on disturbed urban soil and reduces leaf rust severity.Hortscience. 36:790-794

Lowenfels, J. and Lewis, W. (2006). Teaming with microbes a gardener's guide to the soil food web. Timber Press, Inc.

Luoma, D. L., Eberhart, J. l., Molina, R., and Amaranthus, M. P. (2004). Response of ectomycorrhizal fungus sporocarp production to varying levels and patterns of green-tree retention. Forest Ecology and Management 202: 337-354.

MacCormack, H., Tracey, D., Kapuler, A.M. (1993). Transition document toward an environmentally sound agriculture 3rd ed.. Oregon Tilth.
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  #47  
Old 10-17-2007, 02:19 PM
tadhussey tadhussey is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Redmond, WA
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Maloney, K., Pritts, M., Wilcox, W. and Kelly, M.J. (2005). Suppression of phytophthora root rot in red raspberries with cultural practices and soil amendments. Hortscience. 40:1790-1795.

Michel, F. C. Jr., Reddy, C. A., Forney, L. J. (1995) Microbial degradation and humification of the lawn care pesticide 2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic acid during the composting of yard trimmings. Applied and Environmental Microbiology. 61: 2566-2571.

Mondini, C., Contin, M., Leita, L. and De Nobili, M. (2002) Response of microbial biomass to air-drying and rewetting in soils and compost. Geoderma. 105:111-124.

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  #48  
Old 10-17-2007, 03:07 PM
Gerry Miller Gerry Miller is offline
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Location: Midlothian, IL zone 5
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The Truth About Malaria and DDT

Try getting your facts straight before you open you mouth and look like even a bigger clown:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/P...iveness?page=1

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/J...e_vs_the_earth
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  #49  
Old 10-17-2007, 03:40 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Location: District 9 CA
Posts: 18,318
Tad, I could expand that list almost indefinitely. What is your point in posting it? Do you want to see who can fill up the most pages with journal publication listings? I just did a search on the key word "compost" in the AGRICOLA database and got 4581 hits, should I post them?

Lets not mention none of references you posted appear to have anything to do with compost teas. Now they do have something to do with compost (66 occurrences in the list), but then Gerry has already established his position on compost (eg. expensive, labor intensive, and not needed to build a healthy soil).

The links I posted are to documents you can read, and I spent a good deal off time chasing them down. The articles you posted probably all require either a subscription to the journal, or the article to be purchased separately, and took you all of 2 minutes to post.

Furthermore, have I stated or inferred anywhere that microbes do not play an important role in soil ecology? I also never stated that compost teas are not beneficial, I merely pointed out the inaccuracies in Gerry's supposed "facts". You also need to review the other compost tea studies because their findings are also inconclusive.

Review all the credible data available to you before you make a decision on how best to manage your property. Regardless of what Gerry wants everyone to believe, there is no such thing as the "one solution fits all scenarios" when your talking about biological systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
Try getting your facts straight before you open you mouth and look like even a bigger clown:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/P...iveness?page=1

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/J...e_vs_the_earth
More "credible facts" from the cut and paste commando. Your hypocrisy is boundless.
Gee Gerry, why is it not OK to use pesticides in this country, but OK in others?

FYI, there are better alternatives to controlling malaria outbreaks than DDT.

http://www.malariasite.com/malaria/mosquito_control.htm

http://ipmworld.umn.edu/chapters/curtiscf.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/malaria/control_p...or_control.htm

http://www.malaria.org/howcontrolled.html

Gerry, your ignorance is astounding. Talk about misdirection you back peddling ----.

Last edited by Kiril; 10-17-2007 at 03:45 PM.
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  #50  
Old 10-17-2007, 04:32 PM
tadhussey tadhussey is offline
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Location: Redmond, WA
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Kiril,

I have done a lot of research on compost teas, and have read many many articles both in support and against their efficacy. What I've found is that the data refuting the beneficial properties of compost tea all relates to studies where the researchers used poorly made tea. Either they did not use adequate controls or methodology, or they did not look at the biology in the tea before applying it.

Dr. Chalker-Scott's article does not take this into account. All she did was compile all the published studies and base her results on that. If she had done a little more work in her research, her finding might have differed considerably.

As for the list I posted. I received those articles directly from Soil Food Web, and specifically stated that they did not all relate to compost tea. I said they related to microbial remediations and the use of beneficial biology (whether through compost, specific microbes, or AACT). My point in posting the list was to show you that there is other data out there that supports the use of biology in gardening and that data is just that.....data.

As for the "one solution fits all" comment. Well, that why you use AACT. To introduce a high diversity of beneficial organisms into your soil. This allows the plant to choose (based on the exudates it puts out), what the most beneficial organisms will be for it to be successful. These organisms then occupy the infections sites, both on the leaf suface and in the rhizosphere, and outcompete the pathogens for that space.

Now is AACT the only way to get the biology out there if it is currently lacking? No, but it is the easiest way.

How do I know it works? Well, I have been around the industry for over 5 years (my father was a pioneer in developing and inventing effective brewers). I look at my AACT under a microscope to determine diversity and quality of the tea, and we have spent thousands of dollars in testing with soil labs in the process of discovering how to make AACT correctly. When made correctly and applied, the results are amazing. We've had both personal success in combating foliar and soil diseases, and have gotten excellent feedback from a variety of sources ranging from giant pumpkin growers, commercial landscapers, organic vineyards, etc....

I feel like I have reviewed the credible data out there, and have also done a chunk of research on the subject myself. If I'm missing something, please point it out to me. I have yet to read a credible study discounting compost tea.

~Tad
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