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  #61  
Old 10-19-2007, 05:13 PM
Gerry Miller Gerry Miller is offline
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Hitting The Nail On The Head!

Mr. Greenjeans, you've got it right! Clearly, most of these people have no clue about soil biology. Anyone who can ignore the soil foodweb and the use of AACT is a clear indication that they are living in the past, using information that is at least 10 - 15 old and have not evolved to what is current. The links they have provided is prove enough.
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  #62  
Old 10-19-2007, 08:44 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Tad,

I'm only posting what information is out there that is the most likely to be unbiased. I didn't do these trials, I didn't write the reports, I didn't mix the brews.

I stress NONE of these studies are scientifically rigorous, nor are they peer reviewed, nor ar they published in a journal.

I have no agenda here (eg. I don't not sell a product), I am just posting links to trials/experiments that I can find, nothing more, nothing less.

Second, at least two of these trials sent their tea to soilfoodweb for testing.

How about providing links to the peer reviewed journal studies that have shown conclusive evidence that compost teas work under the experimental conditions of the study.

You need to rethink your comment because you have yet to produce one study to support your argument.

Just to be clear, my position is composts teas may or may not work, it is a coin toss at this point.

BTW Tad, since you stress the importance of the proper biology in the tea, I have problems with dollar spot in my lawn, tell me the EXACT biology I need in my compost tea to eliminate it.

Last edited by Kiril; 10-19-2007 at 08:49 PM.
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  #63  
Old 10-19-2007, 08:52 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenjeans_il View Post
Tad and Gerry,
Don't waste your time. He's only an English major with a large vocabulary, chip on his shoulder and a handy search engine. The more you address him the more ammo it gives him to spin and feel better about himself. Even his EPA Greenscapes sight is full of holes regarding the soil foodweb and its ability to produce "self-sustaining" landscapes. The information they have right is common knowledge and the things they have wrong most people on this site know little about.

I think this is a group of "professional" landscapers trying to jump on the organic bandwagon and passing themselves off as tree-huggers while it didn't occur to them to address the needs of the soil until David Hall and others brought it to their attention. Their self-proclaimed professional status makes them unable to grasp the basic science without developing arrogance toward those they view as inferior. Instead of chosing to learn from a statement they feel better about beating it down to justify or meet their own interpretation or needs.

Piss on 'em if they don't know how to listen without berating and condescending. They don't yet know how to ask a question but only feel good about themselves when having the answers. In another time and another place they'll respond to others queries with the same data that you've given them, but for now they're unable to admit you may be right.

Greenjeans
You just spot on described Gerry.
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  #64  
Old 10-19-2007, 09:18 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
This guy, who likes to brag that he has all this college education, (I'm beginning to think it's one of those universities you see on the back of a match book)especially dealing the soil science and plant biology, and in one post even claims he's used AACT, now claims that compost tea is a myth or doesn't work??? HUH? You can't have it both ways. You've switched from one side to the other with you slight of hand and misdirection. Not only are you a Bozo, you're a phony as well. When I see your post, it reminds me of what Albert Einstein said, "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
You claimed I have no credibility, so I gave you my qualifications, how is that bragging? BTW, I graduated from University of California-Davis not clown school and worked out of the soil science department.

I never claimed ACT doesn't work, I did claim there is no conclusive evidence out there that shows it does work.

Does that mean I won't use it, absolutely not. I however DOES mean that I'm not going to fool myself into thinking that all the B.S. claims many of these manufacturers websites make are true. It's time for you guys to get real, stop with the opinionated garbage and provide some unbiased sources of information.
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  #65  
Old 10-19-2007, 09:21 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Here's a couple more links to compost tea trials for you to digest.

This published study applies to greenhouse production of cucumbers, and did have some positive results depending on how the tea was produced.

Compost Tea as a Container Medium Drench for Suppressing Seedling Damping-Off Caused by Pythium ultimum

Another published study on geraniums, inconclusive results

Variability Associated with Suppression of Gray Mold (Botrytis cinerea)
on Geranium by Foliar Applications of Nonaerated and Aerated Compost Teas


Another project on pumpkins, inconclusive results

Aerated compost tea and other alternative treatments for disease control in pumpkins
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  #66  
Old 10-20-2007, 08:08 AM
greenjeans_il greenjeans_il is offline
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Kiril,
It's not that your info doesn't hold some light and that it wouldn't make for good discussion; it's just that you're so damn irritating. Not because you're right about any of it but because you're so condescending. Doesn't someone with your credentials have anything better to do than to come here and talk in circles? Every other post contradicts previous ones. At least Gerry sticks to an issue and doesn't sway one way or the other.

In one post you'll put up links saying ACT is crap science; then in the next post "Oh, well I never said it." No, you didn't say it but you certainly implied it in a desperate attempt to discredit someone else. Stop being such a jerk.

Greenjeans
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  #67  
Old 10-20-2007, 10:25 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenjeans_il View Post
Kiril,
It's not that your info doesn't hold some light and that it wouldn't make for good discussion; it's just that you're so damn irritating. Not because you're right about any of it but because you're so condescending. Doesn't someone with your credentials have anything better to do than to come here and talk in circles? Every other post contradicts previous ones. At least Gerry sticks to an issue and doesn't sway one way or the other.

In one post you'll put up links saying ACT is crap science; then in the next post "Oh, well I never said it." No, you didn't say it but you certainly implied it in a desperate attempt to discredit someone else. Stop being such a jerk.

Greenjeans
If your going to make statements like the above, please provide a quote to the content where I did as you claim, implied or not. I would also request you reread Gerry's posts directed at me because they are more than inflammatory, and in some cases, downright offensive.

As I said before, and will say again, I simply provided links to discussion and studies on compost tea that I could find and link to, whether they be negative, positive, or neutral with respect to results. Just because I posted links to documents that Tad and Gerry say are anti-ACT does not imply that I am against ACT.

Let me remind you that this whole discussion started because I feel an organic program is only one part of creating a sustainable landscape. Gerry maintains it is not. From that point, it degraded quickly, and the topic has changed several times due to accusations directed toward myself that were unfounded.

Finally, this is a forum where people should be able to get unbiased, objective information. I have done my best to provide links to sources that meet that criteria.
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  #68  
Old 10-20-2007, 01:04 PM
greenjeans_il greenjeans_il is offline
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Kiril,
I'm not going back to find it or to re-read through 7 pages of this dribble; not worth my time. I read it once and it gave me a headache. Anyone that's gotten this far in the conversation has definitely received what you've implied.

I'd like to see where "...an organic program is only one part of creating a sustainable landscape. Gerry maintains it is not." you collected that info. I believe Gerry's position is that an organic program need not be sustainable in order to be considered organic. You implied, or said, or somehow have led me to believe at this point in the conversation; that a lawn care program needs to be sustainable in order to be organic. My position, and that of many others, is that is not the case.

Simply abstaining from synthesized chemical inputs to address the needs of the plant is considered organic to many. Others hold the position that all inputs should merely address the soil and bunk on the plants. Others hold the position that if you're using a gasoline powered mower to trim the turf you're a scab on the face of organics everywhere.

I'm of the thought process that if you're attempting to make a better environment and a healthier soil while decreasing inputs and maintenance that you're of the organic mindset and started down the right path.

You insist this forum should hold unbiased information then you should cease to give your opinion on what you consider to be organic. You should also cease to provide links that, in your opinion, are un-biased. The links you provided I'm certain were read prior to posting and don't think we're so naive as to believe that you didn't omit some results which may have been contrary to your argument.

Incidentally, I KNOW Gerry; I don't mean I occasionally run across him on the forums or have heard of him, I mean I've been to his house, worked in his yard, and seen the results of his efforts and knowledge. Gerry does not attack others unless provoked. You people on this forum have intentionally banded together with the intention of condescending one whom you thought inferior to yourselves. So if he offended you; you had it coming. I respect that he's not afraid of the letter's behind your name or the piece of paper on your wall. Those things don't earn you respect in the real world; only amongst your study chums and we're not those people. We're the people that show respect to those that give it and I'm afraid you've failed to do that here. Gerry, I respect; Tad, I respect; Dr. Elaine Ingham, I respect; you, I'm not seeing you earning much.

Greenjeans

P.S. None that was cut and paste with the exception of your quote, of which I give due credit.
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  #69  
Old 10-20-2007, 04:08 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenjeans_il View Post
I'd like to see where "...an organic program is only one part of creating a sustainable landscape. Gerry maintains it is not." you collected that info.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
And like I said before, I'm not an advocate of sustainability outside of using organic practices only and how that assists in sustainability.
I think it is fair to say that the fundamental purpose of the organic approach, be it farming or landscapes, is to create a sustainable system. As I pointed out, how can you advocate one without advocated the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenjeans_il View Post
I believe Gerry's position is that an organic program need not be sustainable in order to be considered organic. You implied, or said, or somehow have led me to believe at this point in the conversation; that a lawn care program needs to be sustainable in order to be organic. My position, and that of many others, is that is not the case.
This is what I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
The goal of any organic program should be sustainability with minimal or no supplemental inputs.
A well written approach to that end.

Ecologically Sound Lawn Care for the Pacific Northwest

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenjeans_il View Post
I'm of the thought process that if you're attempting to make a better environment and a healthier soil while decreasing inputs and maintenance that you're of the organic mindset and started down the right path.
I believe I said the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Let me get one thing straight here. I applaud you and anyone else who makes any attempt at being organic. It most certainly is better than the conventional alternative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenjeans_il View Post
The links you provided I'm certain were read prior to posting and don't think we're so naive as to believe that you didn't omit some results which may have been contrary to your argument.
The majority of links I did not read, how much free time do you think I have? The exception would be the compost tea links, which I did read in whole or part with the time I had available. I did not filter these other than making sure they came from a credible source, regardless of the findings in the study. If you don't believe me then do your own search.

If you read the compost tea trials/studies you would see there are a variety of results, ranging from positive to negative and everything in between. I'm curious how that constitutes omitting results contrary to my argument?

Here are some more studies I have found.

2003 research report on grapes in greenhouse/lab, some positive results under controlled conditions, generally inconclusive.

Suppression of grapevine diseases with compost tea in the greenhouse


1999 Report on various fresh market vegetables, results inconclusive.

Effectiveness of Compost Extracts as Disease Suppressants in Fresh Market Crops In BC.


2006 published study, positive results observed under controlled conditions, generally inconclusive.

Inhibition of the apple scab pathogen Venturia inaequalis and the grapewine downy mildew pathogen Plasmopara viticola by extracts of green waste compost


2007 published study on Telfairia occidentalis (fluted pumpkin), variable positive results found with respect to the control.

The Use of Compost Extract as Foliar Spray Nutrient Source and Botanical Insecticide in Telfairia occidentalis


2006 A rather large study contaning multiple objectives. Source

Effects of composting manures and other organic wastes on soil processes and pest and disease interactions

A review of the effects of uncomposted materials, composts and manures on soil health and quality, soil fertility, crop development and nutrition

A review of the effects of uncomposted materials, composts, manures and compost extracts on beneficial microorganisms, pest and disease incidence and severity in agricultural and horticultural crops

A review of the effects of different composting processes on chemical and
biological parameters in the finished compost or compost extract


Documentation of the standards, regulations and legislation relevant to recycling, compost and manure preparation and application and a review of common UK practices relating to the preparation and application of uncomposted materials, manures, composts and compost extracts

Glossary


Read the available studies and you will find the overwhelming majority of them are inconclusive, and almost all state additional research needs to be conducted.

What is my argument/position?

1) Creating a sustainable system is the desired goal of any organic program.

2) While compost teas have a lot of potential, there is still much research that needs to be done in order to better understand how they can be used as an alternative to conventional pesticides.

Perhaps I'm way off base here, but I believe Dr. Ingham and those in the field would agree with the above two statements.

Last edited by Kiril; 10-20-2007 at 04:16 PM.
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  #70  
Old 10-20-2007, 04:38 PM
Gerry Miller Gerry Miller is offline
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Avoiding The Facts

I have posted not once but twice, comment made by the leading authority on compost teas, Dr. Elaine Ingham, and twice you chose not to respond to her post and comments. Why is that? Difficulty in dealing with the facts?

You keep posting this garbage that there is no evidence to the effectiveness of compost teas. That just isn't true, in fact that's another one of your lies. Soil Foodweb, among other labs, have, in fact, the data that supports the positive results from using AACT. But if you choose to only look at flawed data by people who have either never made AACT or made it incorrectly. Where is the credibility in that? But these links you provide would only be good for one thing, that would be to put in a compost pile because it's mostly manure!

Like I have posted before, Dr. Ingham is know worldwide, is in demand for her expertise, besides being the leading authority on the subject. I'll take her views on AACT before any comments you make on the subject. She knows what she is doing, where you certainly don't based on your posts.

Then I read your current post and amazed at all your back peddling and flip-flopping. No credibility at all!

Let's see you try and twist this one around.

Last edited by Gerry Miller; 10-20-2007 at 04:46 PM.
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