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  #81  
Old 10-24-2007, 03:45 PM
Gerry Miller Gerry Miller is offline
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More dazed and confused

Who are you to be posting that? If you don't like the post, then don't read them. No one is twisting your arm. Like I said before, this list is loaded with arrogant and pompous people that like to tell everyone else what to do. Hey, I got two words for you and it ain't 'happy motoring'.
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  #82  
Old 10-24-2007, 03:52 PM
mdlwn1 mdlwn1 is offline
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I didn't and I won't.
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  #83  
Old 10-24-2007, 03:55 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadhussey View Post
I just wanted to make you aware as to the quality of the studies that she reviewed. When I went back over the list of studies you posted, I gave clear reasons why these couldn't be considered good compost teas. Yes, I do invalidate a study if I feel that the methodology they used was flawed.
I'm curious how you determined what studies she reviewed? When I initially skimmed over the reviews, one thing that bothered me was she didn't list the studies she reviewed, so your basically left taking her word that she only considered published and peer reviewed studies.

I can see how and why you can invalidate a study, I was only pointing out that knowledge is built over time with multiple studies, be they valid or not. A study may be not be valid now given what we know, but they can still be used to validate or invalidate current studies, therefore must be considered when looking at the sum total of the current knowledge base.

You also might want to look into those other studies I posted. The 2003 research report on grapes in greenhouse/lab had some interesting results and the 2007 report as well.
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  #84  
Old 10-24-2007, 03:57 PM
tadhussey tadhussey is offline
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what???

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdlwn1 View Post
Seems like every thread involving Gerry become heated and childlike. Stop posting if your that bad at communicating with other people.
Are you referring to my posts? I'm not sure what I've written that is particularly antagonistic. As for Gerry, while he has had some heated arguments with certain people, that doesn't discount the quality of the information relating to the soil food web.

~Tad
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  #85  
Old 10-24-2007, 03:58 PM
Gerry Miller Gerry Miller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tadhussey View Post
"With respect to the studies, they are what they are, and your dismissal of them is wrong. You invalidate a study because they didn't mix a brew according to Tad's or Soilfoodweb specifications? Dare I ask how you think we came to the level of understanding we enjoy at this time with regard to mixing a compost tea? Furthermore, both you and Tad have chosen to completely ignore the other 3 types of teas listed on the SoilFoodWeb site, why is this?"

Sorry, I've been really busy and haven't had time to respond. First off, I don't think you're in Dr. Chalker-Scott's camp and wasn't trying to imply that by my emails. I just wanted to make you aware as to the quality of the studies that she reviewed. When I went back over the list of studies you posted, I gave clear reasons why these couldn't be considered good compost teas. Yes, I do invalidate a study if I feel that the methodology they used was flawed. How do I know it was flawed? Because I've made many batches of both good and bad compost teas over the years. Now I can look at them under a microscope and see for myself if the organisms are present. If the tea was poorly made, the organisms won't be present, and there will be no benefit dervied from application. I don't need a study to tell me that. As for ignoring the other 3 types of teas on the SFI website, I assume you're referring to things such as plant tea, manure tea, non-aerated compost tea, and such.... The reason I discount these types of teas is because they are inconsistent in providing a high diversity of beneficial organisms, and in many cases can actually damage your plants. There's information directly on that website that states the problems with brewing these types of teas. We're at the point scientifically where we've confirmed (in my opinion, I realize there's data on both sides which you've listed previously) that actively aerated compost teas are the BEST way to provide a diversity of beneficial microorganisms.
As you have stated Tad, I only discuss AACT as that is the type of tea that produces the aerobic organisms that I want to use on my lawn and plants. It's the highest type or best tea, for the obvious reason, the aeration.
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  #86  
Old 10-27-2007, 06:38 PM
Gerry Miller Gerry Miller is offline
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Linda Chalker-Scott Strikes Again

Here is an article that appeared in the News Tribune.com that has some bad information provided by Linda Chalker-Scott. Her title is an 'urban horticulturist' indicates she really has no background on soil biology or microbiology.

Here are a couple of her erroneous posts:

"DON't use corn gluten meal, recommended as a weed control product in the Midwest. Chalker-Scott says research indicates it does not work well in our climate."

Baloney. I have used CGM and it works extremely well. But again, since she has limited knowledge of soil biology, she doesn't understand what is needed for CGM to work.

The reason corn gluten works is because it feeds the organisms that suppress the weed seeds from growing.

Gluten is a food for microbes. As with any food stuff, keep it dry, or refrigerate it in order to prevent microbial growth without the use of toxic chemicals to prevent microbial growth.

Please remember, it is the set of microorganisms you grow when you put corn gluten meal, corn meal, or any other food resource such as these materials are that gives you the results you want.

If you put any of these materials down without also making sure that you have the diversity of beneficial organisms that you need, you may well not get the results you want.

So, aerobically produced compost, or aerated compost tea need to go down at the same time as the CGM, SBM, or whatever. And of course, for biology to work, there needs to be moisture and temperature in adequate ranges.

Corn gluten feeds some really good sets of bacteria and fungi, but for long-term weed suppression to work, you need to get a good fungal bloom to happen, not just a bacterial bloom. Which I hope explains part of why some people get good results with these food additions to their lawns and other people do not.

If the beneficial fungi have been destroyed by application of fungicides before "switching" to more green management, there's no way something like corn meal, or corn gluten, is going to give you much benefit.

"DON'T bother with compost tea, a product made by diluting compost, advises Chalker-Scott, from WSU's extension service. She says there is no scientific proof that it works.

Again, it's obvious she has no understanding of soil biology or microbiology. There is a ton of data, scientific proof that it works. It just shows why she has no credibility.

The aritcle goes on where she talks about making or buying compost. No mention that the compost you make or buy should be tested to make sure there are the organisms you want. No wonder she doesn't know how to make AACT.

No wonder there is so much confusion when it comes to organic lawn care practices. You have these so called 'experts' giving out bogus information and half truths. It almost seems to me that she is on the big chemical companies pay roll to distort the truth on purpose. Whatever the reason, it's clear that some of the information she gives in this article is accurate and others information, like on CGM and AACT she is clueless.

Here is the link to the article: http://www.thenewstribune.com/soundl...ry/189143.html
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  #87  
Old 10-28-2007, 12:12 PM
muddstopper's Avatar
muddstopper muddstopper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
The reason corn gluten works is because it feeds the organisms that suppress the weed seeds from growing.

Gluten is a food for microbes. As with any food stuff, keep it dry, or refrigerate it in order to prevent microbial growth without the use of toxic chemicals to prevent microbial growth.
Gerry, reread you source of info as to why CGM works. While CGM is a food source for microbes, so is soy meal, cotton seed meal , wheat meal and a host of other meals. But the food source isnt the reason CGM suppresses weeds or acts as a pre-emergent.

I would go into more detail, but you would just say I am being arrogant or some other wishy washy word. So you are on your own.
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  #88  
Old 10-28-2007, 12:32 PM
Gerry Miller Gerry Miller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muddstopper View Post
Gerry, reread you source of info as to why CGM works. While CGM is a food source for microbes, so is soy meal, cotton seed meal , wheat meal and a host of other meals. But the food source isnt the reason CGM suppresses weeds or acts as a pre-emergent.

I would go into more detail, but you would just say I am being arrogant or some other wishy washy word. So you are on your own.
Actually, I didn't say that the food source is the reason for CGM suppression of seeds taking root. I said it was due to the correct soil biology. If you don't have the correct soil biology, CGM will not give you the results you are looking for. I think I made that rather clear. Perhaps you should reread what I posted. I don't know how you came up with that conclusion.

As for your second sarcastic comment, that was completely unnecessary. You are making another attacking statement, trying to provoke more of a negative response. And then you would say that I started the negative exchange. Give it a rest and try to keep your eye on the ball here, please.
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  #89  
Old 10-28-2007, 01:31 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
Baloney. I have used CGM and it works extremely well. But again, since she has limited knowledge of soil biology, she doesn't understand what is needed for CGM to work.

The reason corn gluten works is because it feeds the organisms that suppress the weed seeds from growing.

It would appear you also don't understand.


The Use of Corn Gluten Meal As A Natural Preemergence Weed Control in Turf

Further studies have shown that corn gluten meal contains a
substance that inhibits root formation in several species, including crabgrass (Digitaria spp.).


Evaluation and Demonstration of Corn Gluten Meal as an Organic Herbicide

Root formation of susceptible species is reportedly inhibited by dipeptides found in CGM (Liu and Christians, 1996). However, the presence of the material alone at the high use rate (20 lb/1000ft2) may also contribute to the reported weed control by acting as a mulch or by improving the competitiveness of the crop or turf due to nitrogen fertilizer effect.

Greenhouse Screening of Corn Gluten Meal as a Natural Control Product for Broadleaf and Grass Weeds

Root formation during germination is inhibited by CGM in susceptible species. When CGM-treated plants were subjected to moisture stress, they died (Christians,1993). In addition, CGM contains Ľ10% N by weight
and provides an additional N source to plant species with well-developed root systems. United States patent 5,030,268 has been granted for using CGM as a surface-applied preemergence herbicide (Christians,1991).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
Please remember, it is the set of microorganisms you grow when you put corn gluten meal, corn meal, or any other food resource such as these materials are that gives you the results you want.

If you put any of these materials down without also making sure that you have the diversity of beneficial organisms that you need, you may well not get the results you want.

So, aerobically produced compost, or aerated compost tea need to go down at the same time as the CGM, SBM, or whatever. And of course, for biology to work, there needs to be moisture and temperature in adequate ranges.

Corn gluten feeds some really good sets of bacteria and fungi, but for long-term weed suppression to work, you need to get a good fungal bloom to happen, not just a bacterial bloom. Which I hope explains part of why some people get good results with these food additions to their lawns and other people do not.

Interesting recommendation considering the following.


The Use of Corn Gluten Meal As A Natural Preemergence Weed Control in Turf

In the original study, corn meal was observed to lose its inhibitory effect on germination when it was used as a medium for microbial growth. Microbial activity reducing the effectiveness of the inhibitory substance is the likely reason for the somewhat more limited crabgrass reduction in 1988.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
There is a ton of data, scientific proof that it works.
We are still waiting for you to post this ton of data, scientific proof about compost teas as it applies to disease suppression.
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  #90  
Old 10-28-2007, 07:15 PM
rutgers1 rutgers1 is offline
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to Gerry

Gerry...I will begin by saying I have no leaning any way in this issue. My family owned a landscape business for a while and I continue to have an interest in the field - which is why I am here - and I am trying to go organic. But I have to say that reading your posts gave me a headache. There really is a better way to express your thoughts without jumping down people's throats. You might see your abrasiveness as a response to an attack against you, but any neutral outsider would see you as the more abrasive of the two. Reading through the thread made me want to go out and find information to contradict what you said even though I agreed with much of it. I certainly hope you are not this disagreeable in person.
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