Register free!
Search
 
     

Click for Weather
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 11-21-2006, 08:31 PM
Allure's Avatar
Allure Allure is offline
LawnSite Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: jackson, New Jersey
Posts: 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by sildoc
Same problem last year with the elk population in the Rainer National Park in Washington State. Herd was over 10000 in an area of a national park and they tried busting them up to get them out of the park area to allow for hunting. When that didn't work they sent in a few government hunters to take a few diseased cows. December came and nearly the whole herd could be seen rib cages showing like a young ethiopian. January came and nearly 3000 elk died. They tried to get a special hunt to gether to reduce the bulls and take a few cows and hopefully push them out to areas with feed. Some special interest groups tied it up in court for 6 months. the herd was devistated from around 10000 elk to near 3500 in a few months.
The moral of the dilema is that natural predation was not enough to keep the herd in check for that area and allowing hunting would have kept the elk population higher than the estimated 3500.
did you ever bother to ask why the predators couldn't keep the herd in check. Maybe it's because they were hunted to the brink of extinction by man.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 11-21-2006, 08:34 PM
ECS ECS is offline
LawnSite Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,521
Allure, the purpose of using hunting as a method to control herd numbers is so this does not happen. This situation occurs when hunting is banned or not allowed. And the purpose of of hunting bears in NJ is because they are getting out of hand and coming into residentioal areas. Would you rather a child be mauled by one of those non starving bears? Bears are big and strong animals. they are master oportunists and know where the free meals are, and that is where people are. You can not compare bears to deer in a populated area of the east. That is like comparing apples to oranges. Also some of the best meat I have eaten has been from a spring bear. It wasout of this world delicious. The bear rug on my railing is one that was on my deck, she was a dumpster diver, habituated to humans and the taking of food handed out by humans, such as the lovely little bird feeder next to your deck. Is this what you want instead of having the numbers kept in check?
__________________
The best thing for the inside of a man is the outside of a horse.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 11-21-2006, 08:41 PM
ECS ECS is offline
LawnSite Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allure
did you ever bother to ask why the predators couldn't keep the herd in check. Maybe it's because they were hunted to the brink of extinction by man.
And since the reintroduction of the wolf in 1995, they have failed to keep a check on the elk #s in Wyoming, Montana and Idaho. Do you have any idea as to how many wolves there are in these 3 states? If not, maybe you need to check it out. Bears are also their predator as are the mountain lion. Neither of the latter two have been hunted to the brink of extinction. I thionk you need to do a littel more research on hunting and predators and get a lttile knowledge on this. There is a lot of information on the web about all of this. To give you an idea as to the wolf population, there are 3 packs withing 20 miles here and has been here for at least 5 years, yet the elk herds keep getting larger and larger each year. There are way too many mountain lions around here also. For every one lion they know about, it is estimated that there are at least 7 more, and they know of a a lot of lions around here. Bears are everywhere, both the black bear and the grizzly. No shortage of them by no means.
__________________
The best thing for the inside of a man is the outside of a horse.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11-21-2006, 08:52 PM
Allure's Avatar
Allure Allure is offline
LawnSite Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: jackson, New Jersey
Posts: 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECS
Allure, the purpose of using hunting as a method to control herd numbers is so this does not happen. This situation occurs when hunting is banned or not allowed. And the purpose of of hunting bears in NJ is because they are getting out of hand and coming into residentioal areas. Would you rather a child be mauled by one of those non starving bears? Bears are big and strong animals. they are master oportunists and know where the free meals are, and that is where people are. You can not compare bears to deer in a populated area of the east. That is like comparing apples to oranges. Also some of the best meat I have eaten has been from a spring bear. It wasout of this world delicious. The bear rug on my railing is one that was on my deck, she was a dumpster diver, habituated to humans and the taking of food handed out by humans, such as the lovely little bird feeder next to your deck. Is this what you want instead of having the numbers kept in check?
the bear population in NJ is not out of control as you state. Black bear attacks are very rare around here. Far more children are killed by their parents than by animals, are we going to start shooting people?
If people were educated as to how to reduce the likely hood of enticing them onto their property there would be even less of a problem here.
Maybe things are different where you are but i am speaking from my experiences in NJ.
I commend you for not wasting the animals you kill. as i said, i do not have a problem with hunters who eat the meat. I do have a problem with the justifications that the rest of them use to try to win public support for their SPORT. It's a fact that more people are injured by hunters in this state than by bear. If people don't want to live with the bear then they shouldn't build a mc mansion in bear habitat.
Believe it or not, there is a lot of undeveloped land in NJ, & last year, any bear that wandered into a town in this part of the state was relocated to wilderness area. End result, i did not read a single news story about a bear in the burbs here in central NJ this year. even though our hunt was cancelled.
I'm not saying hunting is never the solutions, it's just one of the solutions.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11-21-2006, 09:02 PM
sildoc's Avatar
sildoc sildoc is offline
LawnSite Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Eagle Point, Oregon
Posts: 2,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allure
did you ever bother to ask why the predators couldn't keep the herd in check. Maybe it's because they were hunted to the brink of extinction by man.
Actually you are contradicting what I was posting. If you look it is a National park. NO Hunting allowed. No there were not enough predators there to keep them in check. However here in Oregon since they banned the ability to use dogs to hunt bear and cougar they are becoming the problem. The cougar population has exploded to near 10 times management level per zone. Bear are 2 x management level. Thus our deer and Elk herds are suffering also.
Our cougar are so high that they just authorized a GOVERNMENT hunter to control them. Now this is a waste of taxpayers money as if they would allow dogs again they could bring the cougars back into check.
I am not an advocate of shoot and dump hunting. A nice rack is just a bonus to the family outing, meat, and managing goals.

The family thing is what is is about. My grandfather which is 92 still musters up the gumption to get out with my father, my sons and my self. This is true for a majority of America. As they say a family who hunts together stays together.
Thus you also have to look at the economic factor. There are thousands of little towns that would not exist wern't it for hunting. Farming or ranching is just not enough to keep the town alive. That means less jobs.
If you look at how much the hunter or fisherman spends through out the year and think if it were banned all together what a slump America would be in.
For instance Salmon fishing either charter or river bring roughly $150 per fish. If you buy it you are looking at 40. that is alot of money being lost to communities and businesses.
__________________
What ever I do I must do it right!
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 11-21-2006, 09:05 PM
sildoc's Avatar
sildoc sildoc is offline
LawnSite Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Eagle Point, Oregon
Posts: 2,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECS
And since the reintroduction of the wolf in 1995,
All ready here. Ranchers are going beserk because they are protected. If a wolf is attacking one of their cows they are unable to protect it as if caught shooting them they could be thrown in jail or fined very high.
__________________
What ever I do I must do it right!
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 11-21-2006, 09:06 PM
Allure's Avatar
Allure Allure is offline
LawnSite Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: jackson, New Jersey
Posts: 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECS
And since the reintroduction of the wolf in 1995, they have failed to keep a check on the elk #s in Wyoming, Montana and Idaho. Do you have any idea as to how many wolves there are in these 3 states? If not, maybe you need to check it out. Bears are also their predator as are the mountain lion. Neither of the latter two have been hunted to the brink of extinction. I thionk you need to do a littel more research on hunting and predators and get a lttile knowledge on this. There is a lot of information on the web about all of this. To give you an idea as to the wolf population, there are 3 packs withing 20 miles here and has been here for at least 5 years, yet the elk herds keep getting larger and larger each year. There are way too many mountain lions around here also. For every one lion they know about, it is estimated that there are at least 7 more, and they know of a a lot of lions around here. Bears are everywhere, both the black bear and the grizzly. No shortage of them by no means.
I happen to have an obsession with wolves & i do no the #'s. did you know that they estimate 900,000 wolves once roamed the US. do you really think a few thousand (current estimate is about 4800 in the lower 48) is going to solve the problem in 5 years.
I can go on but lets just agree to disagree.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 11-21-2006, 10:41 PM
ECS ECS is offline
LawnSite Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,521
I agree, 5 years is not long, but in those 5 years the moose population here has been destroyed and down to nothing now. I do agee that there is a need for the natural predator, but I also believe that they also have to be kept in check. This year while hunting I saw 3 wolves. I have seen 5 in the last 5 years, a black one, 2 gray ones and 2 brown ones. Although nice to see, they need to be controlled before it is too late.
__________________
The best thing for the inside of a man is the outside of a horse.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 11-22-2006, 08:52 AM
kpyoung kpyoung is offline
LawnSite Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Northeast Alabama
Posts: 53
Harvesting

I don't usually get into discussions with people who are anti-hunting..my standard response to most people who tell me they don't understand why I hunt is "It's not important to me that you understand why I hunt". Hunting is a personal choice; not along the lines of abortion, religion or the death penalty but still a choice one person makes.

When people say they are against hunting, my thoughts are that when they quit eating beef, fish, eggs, chicken and get rid of all their leather goods including belts, shoes, coats and seats in their vehicles..then I might listen to them.

You can't win when you get into a discussion with an anti-hunter, you WILL NOT change their opinion just like someone WILL NOT change your opinion about the same subject.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 11-22-2006, 10:05 AM
BQLC's Avatar
BQLC BQLC is offline
LawnSite Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: South Mississippi
Posts: 578
I agree with everything you have said ECS,
It is kinda funny to me that some people think that all you have to do is buy a gun or a bow and go into the woods and just shoot somthing. For the record it is not that easy. I have set on a stand and not even seen a deer. I have also set there and watched them and not killed them. As stated in someones earlier post it is about being with friends and family. My father, grandfather, and uncle that i hunted with growing up have all past away but those memories i will have forever.
There is more to than the slaughter of animals.
In some parts of the country development has pushed the habitat back to the point that it will not support the herd some have to be harvested to prevent the disease from takeing over and wiping out the whole thing. It has to be kept in check.
Don't get me wrong I cannot stand the guy's who shoot at every living thing in the woods. These are the guys that end up shooting there buddy or some kid. A hunter should be ethical
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1998 - 2012, LawnSite.comô - Moose River Media
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:14 AM.

Page generated in 0.12562 seconds with 7 queries