Register free!
Search
 
     

Click for Weather
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 10-05-2001, 09:18 PM
morturf's Avatar
morturf morturf is offline
LawnSite Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: midwest
Posts: 477
Lawrence,
Glad your way works for you. My way has worked for 50 years with some adjustments for technology. You made a comment that you didn't need extra organic material because you got enough out of the clippings but you put on compost in bulk?

In my niche, it is not all about cost. I look at what I do for each lawn under my care as stewardship. I am looking at not just this years results, but the next 20 years. What can I do to nurture the soil, build it up,and produce a consistantly superiour lawn. I don't mind inputs that take labor if the end result is a long term gain. You mentioned labor intensity of Milorganite, that is also part of the reason I helped the manufacturer of the spreader I use design it. It makes putting on Milorganite easy.

Here is one thing I have to say about this product. On the yards that I have had for 40 plus years, of which I have more than 30, there is no more than 1/2 and inch of thatch and in most cases more like 1/4 inch. These yards have never...i repeat...never been power raked, aerated, or any other type of thatch removal. There is just no need. We have a huge frost heave here, the frost layer is 48 inches. Our season provides us the air we need in our soil. Compaction is not a problem, unless there is traffic. That is a different subject.

New lawns that I take that have a thatch problem I usually aerate the first year. But over the course of a few years I can atrate the thatch to a level that is proper. I believe that by introducing Milorganite to the program does this. Milorganite provides microbes that break down the thatch. I am a firm believer. I am not trying to convert you, have a feeling you are like me. I would say this, if you have an area that will not repond to a conventional treatment, try some Milorganite. I have solved many problem areas by going with this. This is not the only fertilizer product I use, there are many others that I have made for me. Each round is different. Each year is different too.

I taylor programs to each lawn and soil type. With 150 acres spread over 250 accounts, this can get tedious. But the end results are worth it. IMHO, my lawns are year in and year out, consistantly the best in my area. I have the luxury of turning down at least one yard a day, taking only yards in one section of town and usually have a link to a lawn I already do. I can grow by just keeping the people I work for happy. Right now there are 5 families that I am doing the 4th generation. My retention rate is 98%, losses are as follows 1% death, .5% won't work in my parameters, .5% moving out of the area.

My applied rate is about 20 lbs/1000sq ft. My cost/k sq ft. is about 3 times for some fertilizers and about even for the more engineered types. My program evolves constantly, Milorganite is a constant that works for me. As for the bags, I bring them to a paper recycler once a year and they are happy to have them.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 10-06-2001, 02:03 PM
jkdark jkdark is offline
LawnSite Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: midwest
Posts: 1
ORGANIC VERSUS SYNTHETIC DEBATE

HELLO FROM THE MIDWEST! I HAVE BEEN READING WITH GREAT INTEREST, SINCE A FRIEND RECENTLY ALERTED ME TO THIS SITE. REGUARDLESS OF OPINIONS, ITS GREAT FOR THE INDUSTRY TO HAVE SUCH A POWERFUL FORUM FOR THE EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION. THIS ORGANIC DEBATE REMINDS ME OF THE GREAT LIQUID VERSUS GRANULAR DEBATES OF THE 1970 ERA. I HOPE IM NOT GIVING AWAY MY AGE! AT ANY RATE, I HAVE BEEN IN THE INDUSTRY SINCE THE 70S, ATTENDED A FINE AGRONOMY PROGRAM AT A GOOD OLD MIDWESTERN LAND GRANT UNIVERSITY, AND HAVE HAD THE GOOD FORTUNE TO WORK WITH, AND COMPETE WITH MANY OF THE INDUSTRYS FINEST COMPANIES AND INDUSTRYS LEADERS. I FEEL I AM QUALIFIED TO COMMENT ON SOME OF THE MANY POINTS MADE,BOTH GOOD AND BAD. LETS BEGIN BY SAYING, THAT THE DAY WE ALL STOP LEARNING IS THE DAY WE BECOME CONSUMABLE ORGANIC MATTER OURSELVES.SO IN THAT SPIRIT LET ME GIVE YOU FOOD FOR THOUGHT.( NO PUN INTENDED) AGRONOMICS 101..... ORGANIC MATTER IS VALUABLE. YOU SHALL RECIEVE NONE FROM YOUR SYNTHETIC SOURCE.(PUT THAT IN YOUR 32-5-7) MAYBE THE REAL QUESTION OR DEBATE HERE IS ARE WE DISCUSSING THE DELIVERY OF PLANT NUTRIENTS? THE SLOW RELEASE PROPERTIES OF OUR N SOURCE? OR THE ACTUAL VALUE OF ORGANIC MATTER IN DELIVERING PLANT NUTRIENT? FROM MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, I CAN TELL YOU THAT THERE ARE BENIFITS TO BOTH SYNTHETIC AND ORGANIC SOURCES, TO QUOTE ERIC CLAPTON, " ITS IN THE WAY THAT YOU USE IT". IM NOT BEING PAID TO LECTURE HERE, SO I WONT BABBLE ABOUT THE ORGANIC FOODWEB. I WILL SIMPLY SAY THAT ORGANIC MATTER ALOWS US TO REDUCE SYNTHETIC INPUTS AND GROW HEALTHIER TURF WITH FAR FEWER CHEMICALS REQUIRED TO DO SO. I HAVE WITNESSED THIS FIRSTHAND.NOW IM NOT THE GUY WHO IS GOING TO BEAT YOU UP WITH A GRANOLA BAR. WE STILL BENIFIT FROM SOME SYNTHETIC SOURCES. THIS IS WHY THE CONCEPT OF A BRIDGE PRODUCT ( A HARMONY PRODUCTS TRADEMARK) IS SO VALID. YOU CAN RECIEVE ALL OF THE ADVANTAGES OF BOTH, WITH NONE OF THE DISADVANTAGES. ( SEE NUTRIENT LEACHING) I BELIEVE AT SOME POINT IN THE NOT TO DISTANT FUTURE WE ARE GOING TO ALL BE REGULATED IN OUR DELIVERY OF NUTRIENTS. ( SEE PENDING LEGISLATION IN MANY STATES) SO THE SOONER LCOS EMBRACE AND LEARN MORE ABOUT ORGANICS AND HOW TO USE THEM, THE BETTER OFF WE WILL ALL BE. ASK YOURSELF IF THIS QUOTE PERTAINS TO YOU? " I HAVE DONE MORE DAMAGE WITH N THAN WITHOUT IT" . THINK ABOUT IT. LOTS OF RESEARCH SHOWING ORGANIC MATTER APPLICATIONS CAN REDUCE NIROGEN REQUIREMENTS, AND MORE COMING IN DAILY. NECESSITY BEING THE MOTHER OF INVENTION ( SYNTHETICS HELPED US INVENT THE POWER RAKE, AND EMBRACE AERATION.) SOIL MICROBES HAVE A VALID FUNCTION FOLKS. SO DOES THE REDUCTION OF NITROGEN RATES. I GUESS MY POINT IS...... IT DOES NOT MATTER WHERE YOU GET YOUR ORGANIC MATTER ( HARMONY, MILORGANITE, LESCO, LEAF MULCH, HOUACTINITE, ETC.) GET IT. LOOK AT YOUR COST PER POUND OF O.M. NOT N. SO A 9.00 BAG OF 32-5-7, LOOKS LIKE A VALUE, WHATS THERE IN 8 WEEKS AFTER THE PLANT NUTRITION IS GONE? NOTHING. MAYBE A 60.00 FUNGICIDE APP. ( WHY DO YOU THINK THEY CALL IT FUN?) WHATS THE REAL COST? MY CUSTOMERS VALUE ORGANICS BUT THEY DEMAND PERFORMANCE EQUAL TO TRADITIONAL LAWN CARE. I BELIEVE WE DELIVER IT. AND THEY IN TURN ARE WILLING TO PAY FOR IT. AVG R.P.C. 784.00 YEARLY. I NEVER APPROACHED THAT WITH SYNTHETIC LAWN CARE. JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT.....
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-06-2001, 07:57 PM
lawrence stone's Avatar
lawrence stone lawrence stone is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: anthracite valley, commonwealth of pennsylvania Winter residence: Charlotte County FLA
Posts: 2,079
Quote:
Originally posted by morturf
Lawrence,
Glad your way works for you. My way has worked for 50 years with some adjustments for technology. You made a comment that you didn't need extra organic material because you got enough out of the clippings but you put on compost in bulk?
Since I don't have a 50-year-old business I take on work that has soil conditions such as clay sub soil over mine rock (shale).

Once I can get the soil to hold some water I just use dino fertilizer.

I manage some sports fields and if I used 20 lbs. for every 1k I would need to hire a tractor-trailer for the day to just haul the product to the jobsite.

Putting 60 bags (3000 lbs.) of product vs. 9 bags of 32-5-7 (that's 1lb on N per 1k) on just one baseball field is a bit labor intensive.
I normally would apply just 6 bags to established turf.

Now try to fertilize a complex of 10 total fields. It must take a whole extra day to just handle all that material. Every couple of minutes you have to stop and fill the hopper.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-07-2001, 10:40 PM
morturf's Avatar
morturf morturf is offline
LawnSite Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: midwest
Posts: 477
Lawrence,
I do 2 football stadiums, one 3 acre sports practice facitlity, and 2 soccer complexes. I have a large flatbed, and a forklift and a tractor with a spreader(bag splitter on it) that holds 15 bags. When I fertilize those fields I do them all in one day generally alone and they are spread all over town. I am set up to work with this material. Now 15 years ago, I was doing this out of a 1/2 ton pickup, no forklift and no tractor spreader. It was harder, but the benefits were worth it. I used to put on 100 tons of this stuff in one month with just one other guy and all by hand. I was young then. Now I am smarter, horsepower is the key. There is one thing, if you are in a bidding situation with these fields you would not be able to compete on a straight price quote. You have to educate the facility about what the benefits are and how much it costs in both material and labor costs. It takes me roughly 2 times as long to fertilize a large field with Milorganite, and I use 4 times as much material. You hit the nail on the head about 60 bags does a football field.

We have some lousy soil in this area too along with some very good soil. I find that by adding this organic matter it makes my other materials work better. I am with J Parks here. This is a way to make things work better and make more money while doing it. You have to see the results. Not hear about them. Try it....if you come to Iowa I will show you. Have a good one Stone.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 10-11-2001, 07:18 PM
tremor tremor is offline
LawnSite Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Stratford, CT
Posts: 1,476
Hey,
Thats it? Things were just getting interesting!
Morturf's got a forklift. I've never quite gotten being in this business without one, but hey, they're big & heavy sooo....

Stone, I sell an awful lot of 32-5-7 every year so I thank you too. I wouldn't rely exclusively on organics of any kind. Like most folks, I expect more performance.

Let's face it. Dino or Doody, they both work. Morturf & I prefer the 2 together. Stone prefers synthetics alone.

The bottom line is this. If someones got the money, we can grow grass on their head if thats what they want.

How we get it done is often a matter of personal preferance. Most guys I know will try new stuff once in a while. If the weather turns on them, they blame the stuff & never use it again. Bad mouthing all over town how bad it is. Meanwhile, the guy across town has it figured out, and all's well.

If your customers percieve value in what you do, and they are all paying you in 30 days, if the customer base is turning at less that 5%, if the profit margins are where you need them to be, and the lawns all look the way you want them to, it doesn't really matter at all. Does it?

Find products and suppliers (people) that work the best for you. If the company you buy from shows their appreciation by standing with you when the sludge hits the fan, you got a winner. If they don't, call me.

Steve
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 10-14-2001, 12:08 AM
hustlers hustlers is offline
LawnSite Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: MN
Posts: 257
tremor

My guess is your a liberal Democrat who has
never mowed, sprayed, or FERTILIZED commercially and
your just reading some book which might not even be true.
I think you should get a real life and use all natural
products that are our GOD gave us to use and get
off your chair and stick your hands in some good manure
and feel the heat.

Thats what they said about anthrax and biowarfare
its your fault for inventing and selling
these deadly chems.
Osama bin laden might pay real well$$$$$$$$$$$$$
tremor-right-sounds scary
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 10-14-2001, 07:26 AM
tremor tremor is offline
LawnSite Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Stratford, CT
Posts: 1,476
Hey Hustler,

You sound like an angry person.
The message in your post was about as accurate as the grammar.
How many square feet have you treated in your carreer? Years in?
Let me guess, your mad cuz I vote conservative and your a Clinton/Gore kinda guy.
The chemicals I sell work. The biologicals sent by Osma are very unsophisticated.....so far.
I know why & how they work. Do you?
My experiences in this industry are pretty extensive. Are you sure your ready for this?

Steve
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 10-14-2001, 09:30 PM
LoneStarLawn LoneStarLawn is offline
LawnSite Bronze Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 1,415
Quote:
Originally posted by hustlers
tremor

My guess is your a liberal Democrat who has
never mowed, sprayed, or FERTILIZED commercially and
your just reading some book which might not even be true.
I think you should get a real life and use all natural
products that are our GOD gave us to use and get
off your chair and stick your hands in some good manure
and feel the heat.

Thats what they said about anthrax and biowarfare
its your fault for inventing and selling
these deadly chems.
Osama bin laden might pay real well$$$$$$$$$$$$$
tremor-right-sounds scary
Not to get into this mess, but Liberal Democrats are more of the "Save the Earth" type. So your guess couldn't be more wrong since you think he is using chemicals that hurt the Earth.

I am pretty positive that tremor has the knowledge to use the chemicals efficiently and effectively.
__________________
<i>Alan</i>
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 10-14-2001, 10:17 PM
lawrence stone's Avatar
lawrence stone lawrence stone is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: anthracite valley, commonwealth of pennsylvania Winter residence: Charlotte County FLA
Posts: 2,079
Quote:
Originally posted by hustlers

I think you should get a real life and use all natural
products that are our GOD gave us to use and get
off your chair and stick your hands in some good manure
and feel the heat.

So petroleum based oil is not a natural product.

The only manure (BS) I can see at this time is your inane blather.

You are way out of league in this thread and you should stick to what you know best which is the sh*t you are applying and spewing forth from your pie hole.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 10-14-2001, 11:19 PM
hustlers hustlers is offline
LawnSite Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: MN
Posts: 257
read my pie whole

In 20 years come back and see the mass
destruction synthetic N has caused our
land from leaching, volatizations, and
deteriotation of our soils.
You will all regret the heavy use of chems
on leisure and home turfs with
serious physical side effects
and the banning of pesticides
on non-agricultural uses

IM NO ROCKET SCIENTIST LIKE U ALL
BUT I HAVE A GREAT DEAL
OF COMMON LOGICAL SENSE WHICH
DOESNT NEED TO BE DISPROVED OR PROVED
BY SOME HARVARD SCIENTIST
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1998 - 2012, LawnSite.comô - Moose River Media
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:29 PM.

Page generated in 0.14093 seconds with 7 queries