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  #11  
Old 11-20-2007, 01:40 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Smallaxe, there is no general answer to your question other than it depends on the soil.

That being said, a set of recommendations for your state, northern and central portions.

http://www.eastcentralrpc.org/planni...ting_Guide.pdf
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  #12  
Old 11-20-2007, 10:40 PM
ICT Bill ICT Bill is offline
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Smallaxe, That is an excellent question, but one I am unable to answer with any authority.
The quick answer is what Kiril said, but the science stuff I posted is pretty much by the book and not much use. What I have started to learn is, it is not the soil report that comes back and says add this or add that but the ability of the person to understand what is actually going on in the soil in that particular area, the ability to translate the soil report.

I know I have some info on minimums and maximums, I'll look it up

AMF does not actually lose any battle, they still colonize the root, they still take up areas on the root that the bad guys would colonize, they are still there they just aren't expanding in numbers that they would be in less P soils

Here in Maryland, starting in 2008, our fertilizers can not have any Phosphorous. Since 1989 our clothes washing soap could not have any, our dishwashing soap can not have any next year.
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  #13  
Old 11-21-2007, 11:44 AM
ICT Bill ICT Bill is offline
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Gerry,
Composted wood products have a high level of fungi in it. It is a great source for making fungally dominant teas. Also very old leaf piles are a gerat source too, we have some around here that are left over from old dump sites, it use to be the place where the county dumped its leaves. They have not dumped there in over 20 years, talk about nice finished compost with great characteristics

SSHHHHH... don't tell anybody where it is though
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  #14  
Old 11-21-2007, 01:03 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is online now
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I have recently switched to satelite internet, so when I open a pdf file it wants to 'dial-up' in order to read it. I have to reconfigure something, someday. It is too bad that these articles didn't specify the P levels that they noticed these changes in.

P was thought to be the crucial nutrient to the formation of chlorophyll B, when I was in universty. Chlorophyll B is a darker green in color than chlorophyll A. Iron also aids in coloration but haven't heard how exactly. More winter study

One lakeside lawn has everything seemingly right and is a healthy, vigorous grower, but doesn't have the color that everyone likes to see. One clue might be that since we have darker green uphill in the trees, now that the rains had come, that possibly the problem was this summer's intense sun and drought.

What else is done organically to boost the greening up potential?
This property is on blow sand and the topsoil is about 1/2" thick.

I looked into soil testing in my area and the closest one is 2 hours away and the forms to be filled out are definately of a beaurucratic mindset. It didn't list biologicals being tested at all. So there needs to be a serious issue before 'soil testing' becomes a sensible option.
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #15  
Old 11-21-2007, 01:09 PM
Gerry Miller Gerry Miller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ICT Bill View Post
Gerry,
Composted wood products have a high level of fungi in it. It is a great source for making fungally dominant teas. Also very old leaf piles are a gerat source too, we have some around here that are left over from old dump sites, it use to be the place where the county dumped its leaves. They have not dumped there in over 20 years, talk about nice finished compost with great characteristics

SSHHHHH... don't tell anybody where it is though
If you want to improve your fungal numbers in your tea, it needs to be activated a week prior like I stated. Unfortunately, most people do NOT make their compost correctly, or even have enough for their needs. Not everyone has composted wood products. I use Alaska Humus that is 10,000 years in the making and it still needs to be activated for good fungal content of your AACT.
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  #16  
Old 11-21-2007, 03:15 PM
ICT Bill ICT Bill is offline
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Gerry,
There are a lot of tree companies that grind and compost their trees. We have 2 around here that come to mind, you can buy a yard of 2 years old compost for around $20.00. If you screen it down to the powder it works very well, you can balance it with compost from other sources.

The very fine particles of the wood products compost is extremely dense with bacterial and fungal populations. I have seen some of the numbers from Paul Wagner up at SFINY, pretty staggering that there is that much biology in that dust. In this powder form it is almost water soluble too.
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  #17  
Old 11-21-2007, 11:32 PM
Gerry Miller Gerry Miller is offline
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Bill;

You stated that producing fungi in your AACT, you need to develop a knack while making you tea.

Well, I'm sorry to say, that's a myth. If you activate your compost a week before you make tea, it will not be a hit or miss, you will have good fungal tea. There is no knack required, just simple activation of your compost. There is no mystery behind it or old secret indian tradition.

And as far as 2 year old compost, what does that mean, that it's automatically good because it's two years old? That dog won't hunt. You don't know what's in that compost either unless it has been tested. It could, but it still needs to be tested. What if those tree companies used disease trees as part of their compost? How do you know if those compost piles didn't go anaerobic? I wouldn't use any compost from any company that hasn't tested their compost and can't produce lab results. That's the only way you are going to know for sure.

Last edited by Gerry Miller; 11-21-2007 at 11:41 PM.
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  #18  
Old 11-22-2007, 09:33 AM
Az Gardener Az Gardener is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
Bill;
You don't know what's in that compost either unless it has been tested. It could, but it still needs to be tested. What if those tree companies used disease trees as part of their compost? How do you know if those compost piles didn't go anaerobic? I wouldn't use any compost from any company that hasn't tested their compost and can't produce lab results. That's the only way you are going to know for sure.
This is a part of these discussions that I think is very important and often overlooked. Do you know for sure what that fungus is and is it aerobic or anaerobic? More plant problems can be caused by anaerobic soil conditions than nutrient deficiencies I believe. They mask themselves as nutrient deficiencies but lack of oxygen in the soil is the cause. The nutrients are there but not enough oxygen.

Nature has its own balance and when we try to improve on nature we often go overboard.

This is the problem I have with most compost teas. They can easily become anaerobic and the benefits you hope to achieve by adding the nutrients is lost in introducing a oxygen robbing bacteria that will do more harm than the nutrients will do good.

Testing your compost supply on a regular basis is very important. Here we run into high salt levels because they may use effluent water to keep the piles wet. The other common problem is the product is not completely composted so it actually ties up the N to complete the composting process robbing your plants of the N you were hoping to supplement. Yes eventually when the process is complete it will be available but is your client patient enough to wait for that?

Everyone thinks it so easy just mix up some of this or throw down some of that. We are all lucky nature is so forgiving and will take a lot of abuse and is so good at repairing itself if just left alone.
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  #19  
Old 11-22-2007, 11:15 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ICT Bill View Post
Smallaxe, That is an excellent question, but one I am unable to answer with any authority.
The quick answer is what Kiril said, but the science stuff I posted is pretty much by the book and not much use. What I have started to learn is, it is not the soil report that comes back and says add this or add that but the ability of the person to understand what is actually going on in the soil in that particular area, the ability to translate the soil report.

I know I have some info on minimums and maximums, I'll look it up

AMF does not actually lose any battle, they still colonize the root, they still take up areas on the root that the bad guys would colonize, they are still there they just aren't expanding in numbers that they would be in less P soils

Here in Maryland, starting in 2008, our fertilizers can not have any Phosphorous. Since 1989 our clothes washing soap could not have any, our dishwashing soap can not have any next year.
I have found a couple of articles about "When P is too High".

Zinc: Phosphorus interactions have been studied and widely publicized for many years. The results have shown that high levels of either element can depress the uptake of the other. While we know that the interaction can occur, we do not know enough to accurately predict when problem will occur. However, when soil P tests are above about 100 to 150 lb. /acre by either the Bray-P1 or Mehlich 3 procedures, the possibility of depressed Zn uptake should be a concern. The problem may be more severe, or occur at a lower soil P test in soils with a pH significantly higher than 7.0. It is rare in everyday situations for Zn applications to reduce P uptake. However, it can occur under the right conditions.
Found @ :
http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/supp...f/P_Basics.htm

Another article measured 0-150 mg.kg of P in washed sand and green house conditions. They noticed that as you go over 250 mg.kg. that you also lose Fe, Cu and Mn in various parts of the plant. That is also the same time that Zn becomes increasingly available. (Lost the url on this one)

Over fertilizing is not just a catch phrase anymore. What to do in Maryland where P is unavailable? Or any lake where synthetic P shouldn't be dumped at all?
Organics has the solution in AM fungus. In fact when you think about it organics is the only solution to possibly balancing P with all the Micro-nutrients

Should be an easy sell to anyone wanting to go into the business.
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*
Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #20  
Old 11-23-2007, 04:47 PM
ICT Bill ICT Bill is offline
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AZ and Gerry,
The composter I was thinking of takes his composting very seriously, he was taught the fine details by Dr.E of SFI.
You are right though how do you know, I haven't tried it but soil food web folks say ask for the test results before you buy the compost. If the say no, find someone else.
Anyone that is composting and has been exposed to the SFI practices should understand when someone asks for the most recent compost testing

We batch test everything with SFI

AZ, I can tell you almost every detail , which fungi, bacteria, how many, etc. on the makeup of our product. It has been tested extensively
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