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  #31  
Old 12-12-2007, 01:11 AM
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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnh View Post
Thanks Joey, It is certainly becoming more restrictive, however only in enforcement, the CEC hasn't changed much, just how it is interpreted and enforced.
Further research into this area, CSA STD. 22.2 NO.66-1988 is no longer valid, it has been superseded by CSA STD. 22.2 66.1, 66.2, and 66.3. These are binational standards which relate to UL5085. UL5085 specifically states that it does not cover low voltage landscape lighting. UL1838 comforms to CAN/CSA TILB-58B which is the standard specifically for landscape lighting.
John H. is my go-to guy for standards and such. He knows of that which he speaks.

So to clarify this a bit, Joey, the stickers you showed on your transformer and your fixtures above, they clearly indicate that your products are tested to a CSA standard but the standards quoted are no longer up to date and even if they were, they are "Binational" and relate to UL5085 which specifically does not cover low voltage landscape lighting.

This is exactly what our officials will be looking for in the new year. I hate to say it, but I cannot afford to have a site shut down on a technicality like this. It is unfortunate that there has to be so many layers and red tape and binational this and that. It certainly confuses and limits the marketplace.
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  #32  
Old 12-12-2007, 01:20 AM
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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnh View Post
I don't propose to be an expert, but i do have some experience with this issue, and have been involved with the negotiations with the ESA in Ontario, and here is the rub. A CSA, ULc, cETL, whatever listing is only good if it is "approved for the purpose for which it is intended". In Canada, that means if it is to be used for landscape lighting, it must conform to CSA TIL B-58B. Neither UL1598 nor UL506 (506 actually states "not for use with garden lighting!) comply. The authority was very clear on this point..."approved for the purpose for which it is intended."
JH
Ok, now I am totally confused! Why would a Outdoor Low Voltage Lighting manufacture have their products tested and approved to a standard that clearly states that it is "not for use with garden lighting"? This isnt some crazy Canadian interpretation... the UL506 standard states it.

Perhaps the big difference in price and speed between CSA/UL and ETL is that you get what you pay for? I mean really, what type of consultations are they offering their clients if they are testing products to a standard that is not intended to cover the use of the product? Its just window dressing, looks good until you pull back the layers and look inside.
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  #33  
Old 12-12-2007, 01:25 AM
irrig8r irrig8r is offline
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If James and Joey decide to arm wrestle over this at the AOLP conference will someone please videotape it?
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  #34  
Old 12-12-2007, 01:36 AM
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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting is offline
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Originally Posted by irrig8r View Post
If James and Joey decide to arm wrestle over this at the AOLP conference will someone please videotape it?
Hey that sounds like fun! I'm in! I will start training tomorrow (ya sure I will)

Just my luck I will arrive only to find out that Joey is 6'6" tall, 250Lbs and a former line backer or pro wrestler...
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  #35  
Old 12-12-2007, 09:36 AM
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JoeyD JoeyD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Solecki - INTEGRA View Post
John H. is my go-to guy for standards and such. He knows of that which he speaks.

So to clarify this a bit, Joey, the stickers you showed on your transformer and your fixtures above, they clearly indicate that your products are tested to a CSA standard but the standards quoted are no longer up to date and even if they were, they are "Binational" and relate to UL5085 which specifically does not cover low voltage landscape lighting.

This is exactly what our officials will be looking for in the new year. I hate to say it, but I cannot afford to have a site shut down on a technicality like this. It is unfortunate that there has to be so many layers and red tape and binational this and that. It certainly confuses and limits the marketplace.

OK well this UL5058 thing I have to look into. NOT ONE PERSON int he last day that I have spoken to hasn;t a clue to UL5058 applying to anything we are discussing. I will be speaking with ETL today on this to get a sure shot answer.

Hold tight!
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  #36  
Old 12-12-2007, 09:43 AM
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JoeyD JoeyD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Solecki - INTEGRA View Post
Hey that sounds like fun! I'm in! I will start training tomorrow (ya sure I will)

Just my luck I will arrive only to find out that Joey is 6'6" tall, 250Lbs and a former line backer or pro wrestler...
LOL.......Arm wresteling.....Shall I use my left hand????
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  #37  
Old 12-12-2007, 11:08 AM
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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting is offline
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LOL.......Arm wresteling.....Shall I use my left hand????
If you are left handed then the deal is off buddy!

I think this should be done on Thursday night... no point leaving it to the end of the conference, festering in everybody's mind as to who the victor will be, right Joey?

To the Victor go the spoils!
(or as Kate and I came up with when we were staying at the Victor Hotel in South Beach last July... "To the Victor go the Spoiled"! LOL)
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  #38  
Old 12-12-2007, 11:31 AM
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JoeyD JoeyD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Solecki - INTEGRA View Post
Ok, now I am totally confused! Why would a Outdoor Low Voltage Lighting manufacture have their products tested and approved to a standard that clearly states that it is "not for use with garden lighting"? This isnt some crazy Canadian interpretation... the UL506 standard states it.

Perhaps the big difference in price and speed between CSA/UL and ETL is that you get what you pay for? I mean really, what type of consultations are they offering their clients if they are testing products to a standard that is not intended to cover the use of the product? Its just window dressing, looks good until you pull back the layers and look inside.
I undertsand again where your loyalties are and I am completley fine with YOU not using my product if you are concerned. Let me ask you James have you ever had a product listed??? If you feel we are going to kill you and burn down and ruin your jobs then dont use the products, but dont question ETL and the way they and we go about listing our products. If you are so concerend with ETL being legit and intelligent in their decision making then I think you should notify the following companies right away..........

3M Company
Frigidaire Canada
General Electric
Krispy-Kreme Doughnut Corp.
LG Electronics
Maytag
Sanyo Electric Co., Ltd
Whirlpool
Cummins Power Generation
GE Nuclear Energy
Hitachi
Sony
Yamaha
Sanyo
Sharp
JVC
Kenwood
Pioneer

And the list goes on and on and on. We are just one little company who goes with these guys in choosing ETL!

Again, I am not going to pretend I am an authority here. I am sure you and John are high fiving each other right now thinking haha, we got Unique now by posting articles and what not. But what you need to understand James is this isn't our first rodeo. We have been down this road, heard these arguments, have had the Ul 1838 thing thrown at us from so many different directions and one thing remains the same. Unique Lighting Systems is growing, our products are being installed in all 50 states and atleast 5 different countries and we have never been kicked off of a job. So unless you know something that Nightscaping and FX and who ever else has tried to shut us down on then I would suggest that you not call Unique, ETL or better yet Nate out on how we list and the legality of our listings.

In a very short while I will be posting a phone number. I will be calling a conference call for all willing to take part. We can do this today, tommorow, or Friday, or next year I dont care. Nate will be on the call, I suggest you get any authority you like to join the call and we will have an educated fair discussion on UL 1838 and whatever other listing you would like to dicsuss. You can feel free to hear the arguments that other authority's have heard from us that has permitted them from taking any action to have our listings removed. I encourage all who read and take part in this forum to join the call. You may just want to listen. Some of you see our side of this argument and undertsand that there is no danger in using 22v properly. Sure if some nit wit grabs live 22v and jumps into a pond there could be some consequences but we are talking LOW VOLTAGE HERE GUYS!

I will post the number and set a time and we will shall all be able to dicuss this verbally becuase typing this all out is just lame! We need to be able to articulate and to express our arguments in a way that everyone can understand without it getting lost in translation. I dont want to have any of "what I meant was" stuff.

This will be good for everyone involved here so we can get all the facts strait. What do you think?

Joey D.
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  #39  
Old 12-12-2007, 11:34 AM
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JoeyD JoeyD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Solecki - INTEGRA View Post
If you are left handed then the deal is off buddy!

I think this should be done on Thursday night... no point leaving it to the end of the conference, festering in everybody's mind as to who the victor will be, right Joey?

To the Victor go the spoils!
(or as Kate and I came up with when we were staying at the Victor Hotel in South Beach last July... "To the Victor go the Spoiled"! LOL)
There are non stop flights to San Diego every day right???? why wait till AOLP.........I'll send the Unique Limo Bus to pick you up!!

I know we share the same passion here James, I just dont take lightly to people calling us unssafe or illegal.

I knwo this is all in good fun but I do not want this to get out of hand.
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  #40  
Old 12-12-2007, 11:54 AM
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JoeyD JoeyD is offline
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The ETL Listed Mark is an alternative to the CSA and UL marks.

ETL Testing Laboratories has been conducting electrical performance and reliability tests since 1896. Intertek Testing Services (ITS) acquired ETL from Inchcape in 1996. ITS is recognized by OSHA as a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL), just as Underwriters Laboratories (UL), Canadian Standards Association (CSA) and several other independent organizations are recognized.

ITS tests products according to nearly 200 safety and performance standards. The ETL Listed Mark and C-ETL Listed Mark are accepted throughout the United States and Canada when denoting compliance with nationally recognized standards such as ANSI, IEC, UL, and CSA.

This certification mark indicates that the product has been tested to and has met the minimum requirements of a widely recognized (consensus) U.S. product safety standard, that the manufacturing site has been audited, and that the applicant has agreed to a program of periodic factory follow-up inspections to verify continued conformance.

If the mark includes a small US and/or C, it follows product safety standards of United States and/or Canada, respectively.





The Canadian Standards Association (CSA) is a nonprofit association serving business, industry, government and consumers in Canada and the global marketplace. Among many other activities, CSA develops standards that enhance public safety.

A Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory, CSA is very familiar with U.S. requirements. According to OSHA regulations, the CSA-US Mark qualifies as an alternative to the UL Mark.

Here are some areas where CSA standards are applied:

Canadian Electrical Code, Part III-Outside Wiring
Electrical Engineering Standards
Electromagnetic Compatibility
Example: C108.8: Limits and Methods of Measurement of Electromagnetic Emissions




ETL has been around since 1896. Some guy named Edison?
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