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  #41  
Old 12-12-2007, 02:05 PM
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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting is offline
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[QUOTE=johnh;2061455]Thanks Joey, It is certainly becoming more restrictive, however only in enforcement, the CEC hasn't changed much, just how it is interpreted and enforced.
Further research into this area, CSA STD. 22.2 NO.66-1988 is no longer valid, it has been superseded by CSA STD. 22.2 66.1, 66.2, and 66.3. These are binational standards which relate to UL5085. UL5085 specifically states that it does not cover low voltage landscape lighting. UL1838 comforms to CAN/CSA TILB-58B which is the standard specifically for landscape lighting.[/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Solecki - INTEGRA View Post
So to clarify this a bit, Joey, the stickers you showed on your transformer and your fixtures above, they clearly indicate that your products are tested to a CSA standard but the standards quoted are no longer up to date and even if they were, they are "Binational" and relate to UL5085 which specifically does not cover low voltage landscape lighting.
This is exactly what our officials will be looking for in the new year. I hate to say it, but I cannot afford to have a site shut down on a technicality like this. It is unfortunate that there has to be so many layers and red tape and binational this and that. It certainly confuses and limits the marketplace.
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Originally Posted by JoeyD View Post
There are non stop flights to San Diego every day right???? why wait till AOLP.........I'll send the Unique Limo Bus to pick you up!! You pay from my flight and put me up in a hotel for my stay and I will be there Joey... I will cover my per diem.
I know we share the same passion here James, I just dont take lightly to people calling us unssafe or illegal.

I knwo this is all in good fun but I do not want this to get out of hand.

Joey, I am not calling your products unsafe. I am not calling your products illegal. I am not suggesting for a moment that your products or the company that you work for is engaged in any form of mis-information or underhanded operations.

I simply want to get to the bottom of the approvals, listing, and code issues. I do know that our ESA will be inspecting our installations soon for product compliance. I do know that your products are tested by an established, venerable and authoratative agency; the ETL. And now, thanks to some digging around into the listings, I am aware that the Listing that your products carry is not going to cut the mustard here in Ontario. Simply put, yes your products are tested to a CSA standard but they are not tested to the correct standard for their intended application. (we all know there are many many different standards for differing applications, and that these are "proabably" all safe, but it is the letter of the law that is going to apply here. Electrical inspectors seem to like technicalities and seldom have a great sense of humour on a job site.)

This does not only apply to Unique product, it also applies to other manufacturers like FX and even others. Our challenge here in Ontario will be to sort through all this mess and come up with exactly what components will be permitted to be installed in specific applications.
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  #42  
Old 12-12-2007, 02:56 PM
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Well then James I guess you wont be using any Unique..I guess we will have to go on without you.

Oh and by the way dont expect any plane tickets from me anytime soon. But I would still like to shoot some Crown Royal with you in person and hear all your wondrfull tales of lighting in Canada.

Have A Great Day!
Joey D.
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  #43  
Old 12-12-2007, 03:05 PM
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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyD View Post
Here is my TF label James. Need I say more about my listing??

Ok, so that is a label from one of your transformers right Joey?

Here is what UL 506 states (edited for applicable content):
Specialty Transformers
UL 506
1 Scope
1.1 These requirements cover air-cooled transformers and reactors for general use, and ignition transformers for use with gas burners and oil burners. ...
1.2 These requirements do not cover , cord and plug connected transformers (other than gas-tube-sign transformers), garden light transformers, voltage regulators, swimming pool and spa transformers, or other special types of transformers covered in requirements for other electrical devices or appliances.

Here is what UL 1598 states (edited for applicable content):
UL 1598
1 Scope
1.1 This Standard applies to luminaires for use in non-hazardous locations and ...
1.2 This Standard does not apply to luminaires covered by other standards. The luminaries not covered by this Standard include
Low-Level Path Marking and Lighting Systems in the United States;
Low-Voltage Landscape Lighting as follows:
For products intended for installation in Canada, landscape lighting systems that are 30 V nominal or less; and
For products intended for installation in Mexico, low-voltage landscape lighting devices that are 24 V nominal or less.
For products intended for installation in the United States, low-voltage landscape lighting devices that are of 15 V nominal or less;
Low

And finally here is what UL 5085 states (this is the UL standard that relates to the CSA Std. that is quoted on your label)
Low Voltage Transformers - Part 1: General Requirements 5085-1
1 Scope
1.1 These requirements cover the following types of transformers:
a) Air-cooled transformers and reactors for general use;....
e) Cord-connected transformers (which are evaluated in accordance with Part 2);
1.3 The standard does not cover the following transformers:
e) Low voltage landscape;
f) Swimming pool and spa
:

This is pretty clear stuff. The standards to which you had ETL test your transformer in the photo above does not apply for its use or application as a Low Voltage Landscape Lighting Transformer!

Bottom line it is certified, but it is not certified for its application.

This is the crux of the problem... It is NOT enough to simply have your products tested and certified, they must be tested and certified for the application in which they are used/installed.
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  #44  
Old 12-12-2007, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyD View Post
I am sure you and John are high fiving each other right now thinking haha, we got Unique now by posting articles and what not.
To clarify my position, I am not out to "get anyone", I am simply sharing information as I thought was the purpose of this forum. As with all knowledge, one may choose to do whatever they wish with it.
We in Ontario are in a delicate situation with our local electrical authority, and as such must be specific and meticulous when it comes to codes, and standards.
JH
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  #45  
Old 12-12-2007, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnh View Post
To clarify my position, I am not out to "get anyone", I am simply sharing information as I thought was the purpose of this forum. As with all knowledge, one may choose to do whatever they wish with it.
We in Ontario are in a delicate situation with our local electrical authority, and as such must be specific and meticulous when it comes to codes, and standards.
JH

Very good John. Will you join us tommorow on a conference call to discuss this. The more I hear the more we need to look at what we need to do to conform to new canadian standards.

I will try and offer up some explanation to James previous post as well. He is reffering to the scope of UL 1598 which mainly discusses LUMINAIRES and not POWER SUPPLY's. There is a difference.

I will return later.

Joey D.
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  #46  
Old 12-12-2007, 04:09 PM
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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyD View Post
I will try and offer up some explanation to James previous post as well. He is reffering to the scope of UL 1598 which mainly discusses LUMINAIRES and not POWER SUPPLY's. There is a difference.

I will return later.

Joey D.
No Joey... I clearly quoted UL 506, UL 1598, and UL5085 (as it applies and harmonizes with CSA 22.2 66-1988). These marks are all indicated on the transformer sticker that you photographed.

Each of these standards that ETL has tested your equipment to, as Identified on your products by the sticker, carries with it an exclusion limiting the application from a Low Voltage Landscape Lighting application.

Why your transformer carries a certification to UL1598 is beyond me because you are correct, that standard deals predominantly with Luminaires... Perhaps your factory boys are applying the wrong stickers to your products or ETL made a mistake in testing to the wrong standard.



I too will return later... but will be onsite all day tomorrow, so will not be able to listen in on the conference call... I hope that John H. will be able to.
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  #47  
Old 12-12-2007, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyD View Post
Very good John. Will you join us tommorow on a conference call to discuss this. The more I hear the more we need to look at what we need to do to conform to new canadian standards.
Joey D.
Unfortunately I cannot commit the time tomorrow, but could be available one day next week.

Quote:
This is an rgument nor you or I will ever win becuase our loyalties and views lie in opposite areas.
If this is the case, what is the purpose of the conference call? I am not trying to convince you or your company of anything, nor start or win any arguments, just presenting facts as I know them to be. If it's for a free exchange of information, why change the forum, certainly all could benefit from the information, or at least examine it and make their own judgements.
If you could carify the purpose, I would be glad to make the time to discuss any issue to the betterment of our industry.
JH
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  #48  
Old 12-12-2007, 04:45 PM
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Enough already

I know I don't contribute much here, but I do log in a few times a day to read the posts. Why is it that there are at least 3-4 threads that have ended up being arguments about listings and Unique transformers? Everyone here are supposed to be professionals. If you don't like someones product, don't use it....it's that simple. If you're stuck on working within certain regulations...fine, use the products that you feel work the best for you.

There are manufacturers that a lot of guys use that I will not use for certain reasons, but I'm not going to bash that product or person just because I won't use that specific product line...I work with the lines that will suit me and my customers the best. Enough with these threads being hi-jacked over an issue that really isn't an issue.
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  #49  
Old 12-12-2007, 05:05 PM
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Dave is rigth. I think this is a topic that has been way over analized for a long time. It is not uncommon to hear this from longtime users of NS and FX, so it is one we have had lots of experience in dealing with. I shall post all the applicable information regarding our listings and whatthey mean the minute I get them from my product engineer. I can tell you guys that UL 506 and UL 1598 are being revised and changed. UL1598 will have an entire Power Supply section added becuase if you go by what the current Scope of UL 1598 shows (what James posted) it is very vague and does not adress power supply's.

At any rate if any of you have concerns you all have my number as well as Nate's.

Joey D.
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  #50  
Old 12-12-2007, 05:34 PM
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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting is offline
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Joey. Check your office voice mail, from about 40 mins ago...

Dave, we are professionals.

We are debating very important topics here. Trust me, when your local / regional electrical safety authority decides it is going to start "cracking down" on your methods of practice and components, you will be very glad that there is a record of all this debate. It is happening in jurisdictions all over N. America.

More then anything, I think this debate is of great value to Joey and Unique. They have just recently opened up distribution here in Ontario through Central Irrigation. I would assume that they would like to have a good understanding of the marketplace that they have entered into. Getting their products properly approved for sale and installation here might be important to them.

When is advancing someone's knowledge and understanding of an issue really that much of a burden. As I said, you might just need this information in the future and now it is on record for all.

The wrestling and wagering banter is just that.... banter... between two passionate professionals.

Have a great day.
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