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  #41  
Old 12-12-2007, 08:48 AM
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johnh johnh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Solecki - INTEGRA View Post
Sorry John, the links did not show up in your post for some reason.
Wierd, showed up on my computer at home, but not here. Anyway, here is the link to the website;
http://www.dolphins-software.com/IEEE_ExactFormulae.htm
I used .95 as the powerfactor. I can also attach the NEC table if anyone needs it.
JH
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  #42  
Old 12-12-2007, 09:16 AM
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JoeyD JoeyD is offline
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Originally Posted by irrig8r View Post
Your Vista rep needs to do a bit more research. why would having taps 16-22v cause wasted electricity.makes no sense?

Nate talked about the energy wasted in his book Joey. He justifies that cost of running the system by the savings in the initial materials outlay.

Electricity runs me $0.11 / KWH currently. If I doubled my use it would cost me a $0.23/ KWH. Large residential users pay more. One customer where I'm planning a job is already paying $400/ mo. for electric and gas. i don't expect power to be less expensive in the future, do you?

And yeah Vista makes a TF that is NON UL 1838 it is listed UL 506 and goes to 22v to COMPETE WITH UNIQUE!! obviously.



Yep, as I said in another post they play both sides of the 1838 fence. Just goes to show you the impact Unique is having in the marketplace.

We did not manipulate the formula to increase VD, unlike what most think we are not slimeballs looking to make an extra buck. Anyone who comes to our classes for the last 10 years knows we lead the industry in education and we always inform people based off of FACT and we prove this with volt meters and amp probes. And no we do not calibrate our own meters.

You're a class act Joey.You know I respect you and Nate. I didn't accuse you of any funny business. I admit to having once had a bias against your company, reinforced by what I was hearing from some of your competitors...

I'm more open-minded now. But even they weren't calling you slimeballs.

unbelieveable. Never been on a job that needed more than 15V HAHAHAHAHAH

Must not of ever pulled a 12/2 run more than 200 ft with 80 watts on it???? Sounds like the rep has never been on a big job. Oh wait let me guess, he uses 10/2 for those long runs.......sounds real cost effective.


Well most of the jobs I encounter have (for instance) power available at each end of the driveway, for gates and post lights at the far end, and in or near the garage at the other. Most of those aren't longer than 200 ft., so a 100 ft. run isn't unreasonable to work with up to 15 v.
Sorry Gregg, I had a long couple of days. I knew you werent calling us slimeballs, sometimes I can think I can read intot he mind of these other reps.

At any rate, I appreciate you giving us a shot. I may have mis understood what you were meaning by wasted electricity. My thinking was that they were stating why have extra taps that waste extra energy. You dont always use a higher tap but there are times that you may need it. Our competiton will tell you to use bigger cable or put your transformer out further in the yard. We simply tell you to pull the run and distribute the voltage. 200ft runs are not uncommon when using our products, they are more uncommon when you limit your TF to 15v. You find ways to not pull 200ft. But when you have the ability why not?

Joey D.
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  #43  
Old 12-12-2007, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnh View Post
Sorry James, thought the formulas were there when cut and pasted that in. Here they are;




I didn't bother with the DC calculation, but for the AC at 100W and 100ft, i calculated it to be 1.68. Perhaps someone could verify that?

There also seems to be a lot of discussion around multi-tap and voltages up to 22V. My $.02...the reason UL1838 limits to 15V is a matter of safety, and not for the experienced contractors on here, but the uneducated and unaware homeowner, the kids playing in the yard, the unsuspecting gardener. 15V is the maximum safe voltage for let go current.
JH
NEC CLEARLY STATES 30V OR LESS IS SAFE!
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  #44  
Old 12-12-2007, 09:34 AM
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When is the test being done James?? I am ready to go here buddy!!
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  #45  
Old 12-12-2007, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyD View Post
NEC CLEARLY STATES 30V OR LESS IS SAFE!
Hi Joey, I didn't just make this up. This is an excerpt from the IAEI magazine, Nov/Dec 2004 issue.
"A non-sinusoidal peak voltage of 42.4 volts for an ac circuit is considered a safe voltage under dry conditions and would not normally constitute a shock or fire hazard. In wet conditions, this voltage must be limited to 15 volts for a sinusoidal ac and 21.2 volts peak for a non-sinusoidal ac. Since the body’s resistance is decreased by water, the permissible voltage of the output of the low-voltage system is decreased accordingly to ensure safe handling and operation of these circuits where water is a concern. Using low-voltage systems in close proximity to or in fountains and swimming pools should only be considered when all the NEC requirements are applied"
Link to full document here http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/04_f/ode.htm
The outdoor landscape is generally considered to be wet conditions, although this may not be the case in some desert climes.
This is substantiated by the IEC Technical Specification 60479-1 on touch voltages.
30V is the maximum safe voltage for ventricular fibrulation. 15V is the maximum safe voltage for painful "Let-Go" current. By limiting to 15V, UL1838 has eliminated 15V of pain!
JH
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  #46  
Old 12-12-2007, 10:46 AM
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JoeyD JoeyD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnh View Post
Hi Joey, I didn't just make this up. This is an excerpt from the IAEI magazine, Nov/Dec 2004 issue.
"A non-sinusoidal peak voltage of 42.4 volts for an ac circuit is considered a safe voltage under dry conditions and would not normally constitute a shock or fire hazard. In wet conditions, this voltage must be limited to 15 volts for a sinusoidal ac and 21.2 volts peak for a non-sinusoidal ac. Since the body’s resistance is decreased by water, the permissible voltage of the output of the low-voltage system is decreased accordingly to ensure safe handling and operation of these circuits where water is a concern. Using low-voltage systems in close proximity to or in fountains and swimming pools should only be considered when all the NEC requirements are applied"
Link to full document here http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/04_f/ode.htm
The outdoor landscape is generally considered to be wet conditions, although this may not be the case in some desert climes.
This is substantiated by the IEC Technical Specification 60479-1 on touch voltages.
30V is the maximum safe voltage for ventricular fibrulation. 15V is the maximum safe voltage for painful "Let-Go" current. By limiting to 15V, UL1838 has eliminated 15V of pain!
JH
This is great!!

Thanks John. I have so much I want to say but I am going to keep my mouth shut and let the authority for our company on this subject speak. This is nothing new by the way. We have been doing this for quite a while now and have read and heard all of the arguments pertaining to UL 1838. The UL guy at AOLP last year regergatated the same stuff and it is fact driven but Nate quickly had the guy back peddling when he began questioning him. But mind you UL1838 is not the only code listed for powering up low voltage lighting in wet or dry locations. Call us what you will but you cannot find one job that we have been flagged on or dismissed on and there are reasons....more to come...I do love this though!!!

Along with the whole article I did find this part quite interesting and apply's to this subject we are on here.......

"If larger wire is necessary to counter voltage drop in long runs, Type UF (Underground Feeder and Branch circuit) cable could be used. Another method would be to start a long run with 12 AWG SPT-3 cable and then convert to 16 AWG or 14 AWG in the middle or toward the end of the run. Limiting the number and size of lamps on the long run will also provide a solution for excessive voltage drop. The following formula will help determine the voltage drop in your circuit: 2 X length of run X ampacity of load X the resistance of the wire in thousand feet (that value can be found in Table 8 of chapter 9 using the uncoated wire column) divided by 1000 feet = voltage drop."


Looks like someone else believes in our VD method...That again we did not create, we only pulled from electrical engineering books.

Nice work John!!
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  #47  
Old 12-12-2007, 11:26 AM
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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting is offline
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I'm thinking a better challenge would be John H up against Joey in an arm wrestle! Knowing John, I would put my money on him!

John, keep all the technical research and quotes you have amassed over all these years coming.... I don't have the time or the opportunity to pour through all this stuff and you certainly have a ton of experience and knowledge in this area. I for one really appreciate the input and the greater understanding of the technical issues that you are bringing to this group.

Have a great day.
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  #48  
Old 12-12-2007, 08:46 PM
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OK back to the topic at hand. This afternoon I ran the test. I also videotaped my findings. I hope to post it tommorow. I tested 3 different VD methods. I hope to have the video loaded and posted by tommowor afternoon. James, you should still run your own and let us know what your findings are.
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  #49  
Old 12-12-2007, 09:39 PM
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This is great info guys, can't wait to see the results.
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  #50  
Old 12-12-2007, 09:44 PM
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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyD View Post
OK back to the topic at hand. This afternoon I ran the test. I also videotaped my findings. I hope to post it tommorow. I tested 3 different VD methods. I hope to have the video loaded and posted by tommowor afternoon. James, you should still run your own and let us know what your findings are.
Joey, you are WAYYYYY ahead of me man! I spent the better part of today taking apart the various UL and CSA standards to see how they tick, then I rigged up a nice parallel trickle charge system for all my boat batteries that are stored for the winter...

I was thinking about getting around to these Voltage Drop Tests sometime in January to be honest... A guy has to ease into the winter 'experimentation season' if you know what I mean.

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