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  #21  
Old 02-08-2008, 09:47 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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You don't need CT to get biology into your soil. All you need is a good quality compost applied to your landscape and you will get biology and a food source in one application.

If your continually needing to apply CT to maintain an acceptable level of biological activity in your soil, then I would think something is wrong with the program.
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  #22  
Old 02-08-2008, 10:08 AM
Gerry Miller Gerry Miller is offline
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Location: Midlothian, IL zone 5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
You don't need CT to get biology into your soil. All you need is a good quality compost applied to your landscape and you will get biology and a food source in one application.

If your continually needing to apply CT to maintain an acceptable level of biological activity in your soil, then I would think something is wrong with the program.
Compost is much harder to spread and cost significantly more money to use if you have to purchase it. Most home owners don't produce enough compost for their needs, especially if you are talking about topdressing. AACT is a much better option giving much more in the way of microorganisms than you will ever get from compost. Not to mention cheap to make and very, very easy to apply. There is no comparison.

And compost as a food source is on the low end. The stuff that goes in to compost is typically very low in protein because, typically, the humans or animals have already eaten the protein out of the carcass you discarded into the pile. Protein, like in protein meals, is important to the soil because it feeds the microbes. Protein carries the nitrogen molecules around in the soil. When they die, the protein is eaten by other microbes which carry it elsewhere. Eventually some of the microbes excrete Nature's own brand of plant food. Bringing the nitrogen-carrying protein to the soil is what provides the [delayed] fertilization effect. So the ground up grains and other ingredients that go into animal protein feeds are also what go into organic fertilizers. What we are doing by sending y'all to the feed store is cutting out the expensive bag and showing you where to get the same organic fertilizer ingredients for 1/6 the price.

And to reapply AACT to you soil is NOT an indication of something being wrong with the program. But in fact is the result of environmental conditions. Exposure to synthetic chemicals, even if apply by your neighbor, will have an effect on your soil organisms. Pesticides used down wind from a spraying farmer will have a negative effect on your soil organisms. Other conditions as well can have an effect on soil organisms.
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  #23  
Old 02-08-2008, 10:17 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
You don't need CT to get biology into your soil. All you need is a good quality compost applied to your landscape and you will get biology and a food source in one application.

If your continually needing to apply CT to maintain an acceptable level of biological activity in your soil, then I would think something is wrong with the program.
That is also a suspicion of mine.
What do you think of it as a jump start to taking over a new lawn?
Would compost alone work in one season? (in a reasonably habitable environment)

Am I being sold organisms that are already in the lawns?
Am I being sold N gas for fertilizer at about 80% concentration?
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #24  
Old 02-08-2008, 10:29 AM
Tom Jaszewski's Avatar
Tom Jaszewski Tom Jaszewski is offline
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smallaxe, you don't want to brew tea. SO....this is pretty much a dead conversation for you. There are some products out there that are containerized but they will not have the diversity or the results you could have with a well designed tea program. BUT you have to believe that there is room for improvements in your methods and that there is a better way than those methods offered by Monsanto and the chemical sales professionals.

Tad, some of us have brewed 10's of thousands of gallons of tea and continue to brew CT with fabulous results. If I make 500 gallons of tea, stick it under the scope and find it lacking in fungi for example, what do I do with the tea....I APPLY IT!!! A number of things may have happened to reduce those fungi being extracted or they may not have been there or they may be gobbled up by the bacterial bloom. Next batch I see fungi, next batch not so many. Now the experts tell me I need to send my sample off to the lab for a $300.00 test to confirm what I'm seeing. You're making this business a money trap for a laboratory business.

3 of the most successful users of CT I know don't use their scopes or test anymore. (BTW I don't need a $500 diagnostic code reader to drive my car either....) They also don't believe that CT provides all the nutrients needed for their crops/turf/landscapes.

Once again, buy a good machine from a manufacturer working in AG AND hort with SUPPORT. Ask the manufacturer how many educational conferences they have organized. Ask the principal what their EXPERIENCE is....and how about some references.

THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTORS IN BREWING TEA ARE;
Machine manufacturer and experience
Inputs, source of vermi, compost and nutrient packs
Consistent brewing regimens, proper recipe standards
Well designed nutrient program based on soil testing
Cleanliness of equipment, learn how a dairy farmer cleans his bulk tank


It worked on a 70 million dollar landscape in the middle of the desert...It might just work in my yard...

It really is a shame this tea business has gotten so goofy....
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  #25  
Old 02-08-2008, 10:34 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
Compost is much harder to spread and cost significantly more money to use if you have to purchase it.
Compost is more expensive than CT + protein meals?

How much do you think it would cost for 1 yard of your protein meal of choice?

Some cities have compost sources that are free to the general public, other at a very low cost. Even if you buy it from a bulk material dealer it is still very cheap, and certainly much cheaper than your protein meals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
And compost as a food source is on the low end.
Can you provide some peer reviewed literature that demonstrates this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
Protein carries the nitrogen molecules around in the soil. When they die, the protein is eaten by other microbes which carry it elsewhere.
I didn't know protein was alive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
And to reapply AACT to you soil is NOT an indication of something being wrong with the program. But in fact is the result of environmental conditions. Exposure to synthetic chemicals, even if apply by your neighbor, will have an effect on your soil organisms. Pesticides used down wind from a spraying farmer will have a negative effect on your soil organisms. Other conditions as well can have an effect on soil organisms.
I would argue otherwise. There is something wrong with the system if the biology is being depleted to the point where it needs to be reestablished. If you provide food and reduce or eliminate inputs that are detrimental to biological populations, you will have biology in your soil.

As far as your neighbor and local farmer is concerned, they have little or no impact on what is happening in your yard, that is unless they actually in your yard applying these chemicals and pesticides.
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  #26  
Old 02-08-2008, 10:35 AM
Tom Jaszewski's Avatar
Tom Jaszewski Tom Jaszewski is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Miller View Post
Compost is much harder to spread and cost significantly more money to use if you have to purchase it. Most home owners don't produce enough compost for their needs, especially if you are talking about topdressing. AACT is a much better option giving much more in the way of microorganisms than you will ever get from compost. Not to mention cheap to make and very, very easy to apply. There is no comparison.

And compost as a food source is on the low end. The stuff that goes in to compost is typically very low in protein because, typically, the humans or animals have already eaten the protein out of the carcass you discarded into the pile. Protein, like in protein meals, is important to the soil because it feeds the microbes. Protein carries the nitrogen molecules around in the soil. When they die, the protein is eaten by other microbes which carry it elsewhere. Eventually some of the microbes excrete Nature's own brand of plant food. Bringing the nitrogen-carrying protein to the soil is what provides the [delayed] fertilization effect. So the ground up grains and other ingredients that go into animal protein feeds are also what go into organic fertilizers. What we are doing by sending y'all to the feed store is cutting out the expensive bag and showing you where to get the same organic fertilizer ingredients for 1/6 the price.

And to reapply AACT to you soil is NOT an indication of something being wrong with the program. But in fact is the result of environmental conditions. Exposure to synthetic chemicals, even if apply by your neighbor, will have an effect on your soil organisms. Pesticides used down wind from a spraying farmer will have a negative effect on your soil organisms. Other conditions as well can have an effect on soil organisms.
Good post Gerry, as usual you do a great job of speaking for the homeowner. I do however think that some different methods need to be explored when we're discussing an LCO making it a part of their business plan. For Kiril, what's wrong is a monoculture, and nutrients and chemicals being applied to disrupt the biology, nothing to do with CT!
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"The ultimate test of man's conscience may be his willingness to sacrifice something today for future generations whose words of thanks will not be heard."
— Gaylord Nelson
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  #27  
Old 02-08-2008, 10:45 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Jaszewski View Post
Now the experts tell me I need to send my sample off to the lab for a $300.00 test to confirm what I'm seeing. You're making this business a money trap for a laboratory business.
Ditto.

I can see the value in a one time bio-assay to establish a baseline, but beyond that I believe you should take a real hard look at what your trying to accomplish and ask yourself if another bio-assay is going to provide you with information you can't determine on your own.
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  #28  
Old 02-08-2008, 11:00 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Smallaxe,

I believe if you provide a suitable home with food for soil biology, it will establish itself over time.

Tom summed it up nicely in this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Jaszewski View Post
We have a great lab in MN. International Ag Labs. Don't go to nuts on overly costly bio assays. Work with them to develop a better nutritional program and the biology will come along.

If you build it, they will come.
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  #29  
Old 02-08-2008, 11:09 AM
growingdeeprootsorganicly growingdeeprootsorganicly is offline
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tom,
any dusty old used lonely scopes for sale? lol

sincerely,
charlie
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  #30  
Old 02-08-2008, 11:27 AM
Tom Jaszewski's Avatar
Tom Jaszewski Tom Jaszewski is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Winona MN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
You don't need CT to get biology into your soil. All you need is a good quality compost applied to your landscape and you will get biology and a food source in one application.

If your continually needing to apply CT to maintain an acceptable level of biological activity in your soil, then I would think something is wrong with the program.
What quality compost!? It just isn't universally available. But combining CT with what IS available is a winning proposition. Please don't take statements out of context to try to prove your point.
That being said I do really enjoy your perspective!
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"The ultimate test of man's conscience may be his willingness to sacrifice something today for future generations whose words of thanks will not be heard."
— Gaylord Nelson
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