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  #21  
Old 06-25-2008, 08:54 AM
CHE3TAH CHE3TAH is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syzer View Post
My impressions of the DW sk 650 and the vermeer
http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php...&postcount=468
Very good comparison!

In regard to a few of your observations:

Track on the ground Ditch Witch vs. Vermeer, the DW has 43" of track on the ground. You mentioned a push test? Tracks are not only for traction but for stability and balance as well. DW w/ 43" of track on the ground allows for a greater "Tip Capacity" at 1860 lbs vs. Vermeer at 1450 lbs. DW also offers a wider 9" track with the ability widen the frame to 42" if necessary.

Hydraulics, you mention DW with 4 pumps and Vermeer with 3. Now you understand why the DW had noticably more power through all functions and why the Vermeer had flames in the design of the frame work above the hydraulic cooler. Hydraulic capacity of the DW is 7 gal. vs. 14 gal. in the Vermeer.

Engines, DW runs 21.5 Hp Kubota 1105-T (T for TURBO) vs. the 26 Hp Kubota 990

Tie the engine and auxilary hydraulics together you get nearly 20.9 Hp to powered attachment vs. est. 10 Hp on the Vermeer. This is why you have noticably more power why multifunctioning. In example driving into a pile of material and raising the loader arms, curling the bucket and pushing through the pile and not stahling the machine.

Speed, the DW specs 4.3 mph vs. Vermeer at 4.5 mph. a 0.2 mph difference. Keep in mind that is at a dead run with no load. Load the 2 machines or run the auxilary hydraulics and see which machine has the greatest ground speed while actually working the machine.

Controls, 2 levers vs. 1 lever for track drive operation. Both units are unique to any other brands in that they both use hydraulic charge to stroke the ground drive pumps. DW uses indipendant levers vs. Vermeers single joystick design. I feel that the dual independant design allows for more controlability but, that's just me. Both allow for no mechanical linkage to adjust and maintain over the life of the machine.

Finally, more pumps, larger more powerful Turbo engine all equal a justified increased price tag. The DW is arguably a Class above all other Mini's in regard to performance as you well mentioned. Creature comforts were the off setting factors mentioned. Ultimately, production is the key......... you mentioned you didn't purchase the either machine hoping Vermeer comes out with a new model. The increased production and increased in jobs you could of had while you wait on a new model may well of offset the difference in price of the two machines in production alone.
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  #22  
Old 06-25-2008, 12:07 PM
CHE3TAH CHE3TAH is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHE3TAH View Post
Very good comparison!


Engines, DW runs 21.5 Hp Kubota 1105-T (T for TURBO) vs. the 26 Hp Kubota 990
I'm sorry, Type-O DW runs a 31.5 Hp
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  #23  
Old 06-25-2008, 03:06 PM
Vermeer Vermeer is offline
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Comparison

Items to consider.....from another perspective
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHE3TAH View Post
Very good comparison!

In regard to a few of your observations:

Track on the ground Ditch Witch vs. Vermeer, the DW has 43" of track on the ground. You mentioned a push test? Tracks are not only for traction but for stability and balance as well. DW w/ 43" of track on the ground allows for a greater "Tip Capacity" at 1860 lbs vs. Vermeer at 1450 lbs. DW also offers a wider 9" track with the ability widen the frame to 42" if necessary.

Longer track length on the ground may be ok in some situations but sometimes may be a detriment when steering or counter rotating depending on the overall size of machine. Undercarriage placement on the machine is what can create an increased tip load. As with many of the skid steers there are compromises. One model can have a great tip/lift capacity but often sacrifices the ability to put any down pressure on an attachment such as an auger, plate compactor when back dragging etc . Generally this means the front ends is light and not balanced for all applications and that need to be considered. It all depends on what work the individual is doing most of the time to meet their needs.Hydraulics, you mention DW with 4 pumps and Vermeer with 3. Now you understand why the DW had noticably more power through all functions and why the Vermeer had flames in the design of the frame work above the hydraulic cooler. Hydraulic capacity of the DW is 7 gal. vs. 14 gal. in the Vermeer.

For over 20+ years Vermeer in all its hydrostatic equipment from 25-500 hp. properly size their hydraulic systems, resevoirs and oil coolers to maximize the life on their hydrostatic systems. When you pump 13 gpm through a system for extended periods of time you need the capacity to cool and dwell (get the aeration of the oil out) capacity. That is what the hydraulic suppliers recommend for an optimum system. By the way the flames on the oil cooler were actually requested by some of the people at Lawnsite.Engines, DW runs 21.5 Hp Kubota 1105-T (T for TURBO) vs. the 26 Hp Kubota 990
Tie the engine and auxilary hydraulics together you get nearly 20.9 Hp to powered attachment vs. est. 10 Hp on the Vermeer. This is why you have noticably more power why multifunctioning. In example driving into a pile of material and raising the loader arms, curling the bucket and pushing through the pile and not stahling the machine.

[I]How do you measure your hyd hp. Theoretical? 13gpm at 3000 psi at 25 hp. Are you implying that Vermeer has 10 hyd hp? How do you get your numbers I am curious[/I]?

Speed, the DW specs 4.3 mph vs. Vermeer at 4.5 mph. a 0.2 mph difference. Keep in mind that is at a dead run with no load. Load the 2 machines or run the auxilary hydraulics and see which machine has the greatest ground speed while actually working the machine.

Have you compared the two in both conditions to validate this claim? Do you always run the auxiliary circuit fully engaged when traveling at full speed? Most people do not usually do this that I know of.Controls, 2 levers vs. 1 lever for track drive operation. Both units are unique to any other brands in that they both use hydraulic charge to stroke the ground drive pumps. DW uses indipendant levers vs. Vermeers single joystick design. I feel that the dual independant design allows for more controlability but, that's just me. Both allow for no mechanical linkage to adjust and maintain over the life of the machine.

Again this is your opinion. Let the customer decide which system is best.

Finally, more pumps, larger more powerful Turbo engine all equal a justified increased price tag. The DW is arguably a Class above all other Mini's in regard to performance as you well mentioned. Creature comforts were the off setting factors mentioned. Ultimately, production is the key......... you mentioned you didn't purchase the either machine hoping Vermeer comes out with a new model. The increased production and increased in jobs you could of had while you wait on a new model may well of offset the difference in price of the two machines in production alone.
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Last edited by Vermeer; 06-25-2008 at 03:11 PM.
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  #24  
Old 06-25-2008, 06:34 PM
Summit L & D Summit L & D is offline
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Here is where I am at now.

Ditch Witch - To expensive, for me. While I'm sure it is everything and then some. I don't feel that it justifies the price, for me.

Vermeer - Nice machine, but again, to expensive.

Bobcat - Just finished the demo and am awaiting the final numbers from the salesman. I feel that the MT52 and 55 compare pretty well to the Dingo 525 (wide and narrow track). With that being the case I feel like I could take either one and be pretty happy with it. However, the usual drawbacks are present; wheel on the platform, more fittings to grease and Bobcat specific attachments. Does anyone know how much the adapter plate for the Bobcat cost, and who makes the best one?

Dingo - 525 (narrow track, new tracks) demo unit with 200 hours.
Machine $15,801
Soil Cultivator $4,678 (demo)
Trencher $3,663 (+ chain $442)
Large Bucket $475
Platform $550
Total $25,609

Do you feel that this is a fair deal? I personally think that the guy is still asking to much for the 525, given that it has been in his rental/demo fleet for the last year+. He says that the 525 will come with a full warranty (being that he is selling me a "new" machine).

Thanks.
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  #25  
Old 06-26-2008, 11:18 PM
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Green Team Landscaping Green Team Landscaping is offline
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before you buy anything, try to get a ball park estimate for the repairs, because you could get a cheap machine, but it will even out in the repairs. now i dont use any of these, but i found that out the hard way, and on a smaller scale.
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  #26  
Old 06-26-2008, 11:33 PM
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TPendagast TPendagast is offline
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If bobcat has the full service dealer. I would lean with dealer support. However of all the machines I have ever run in this category, I would rate them
1) Ditchwitch SK series
2) Dingo
57) bobcat
58) Kanga Kid

Bobcat doesnt specialize in the making of the mini skid. They have about the best full size skids out there.
In my opinion buying a mini skid from bobcat is like going to a steak house and ordering the hamburger.

Dingo basically pioneered the mini skid, Ditch witch waited until everyone made theirs, then reversed engineered everything and took the best that everyone had to offer and took each one of those things to make theirs.

Vermeer? They make wood chippers and stump grinders, their mini skid is dabbling in something they dont do regularly.

However, service wise, if you dont have a full service dealer with toro, The full service dealer thing is a big, BIG issue.

Bobcat does have a good dealer/service network.

my final opinion IF you are leaning to bobcat , go withthe biggest one you can afford.
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  #27  
Old 06-27-2008, 07:33 PM
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TPendagast TPendagast is offline
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Huh, the mini skid attachments arent universal like the big skid plates are?
I never triedto swap between units, guess I just assumed.
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  #28  
Old 06-28-2008, 08:58 AM
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BrandonV BrandonV is offline
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all except bobcat
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  #29  
Old 06-28-2008, 12:36 PM
Summit L & D Summit L & D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TPendagast View Post
Huh, the mini skid attachments arent universal like the big skid plates are?
I never triedto swap between units, guess I just assumed.
No, Bobcat's plate is a lot bigger than the Toro style plate. The plate on the MT55 and 52 are the same size as the 463 Bobcat.

I am pretty sure we are going to go with the Bobcat. I've found a really good deal that I don't think I can pass up. It seems like the MT55 is built a lot stronger than the Dingo. I think it will hold up better to the use we will put it through.
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  #30  
Old 06-29-2008, 09:22 AM
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BrandonV BrandonV is offline
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the bobcats are very well made. we had a mt50 for about 4 years and never had so much as a problem with it. I wish I could say that for my other bobcats but the mini was a winner. The only problem is if you're (as i did) invest in all the toys to go w/ the mt and the next time you buy a mini skid you'll have to look into adapter plates or have toro style plates welded onto you attachments (which I did)
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