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  #31  
Old 03-29-2009, 08:02 PM
dishboy dishboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicmudpuppy View Post
"Dumping" 2#'s of N on a lawn anytime would be a bad idea. Putting down a product that is going to make 2#'s of N available over the next 18-20 weeks sounds like a great plan to me. I would never put more than 1#N/m from a synthetic, but I had no worries putting down 1.5#N as milorganite last fall on my KBG, and hitting my bentgrass w/ 1.5# with the topdressing after spring aerification. I wish I could have budgeted 2#'s. Again, realize your putting down a product that is not going to be fully available for around 20 weeks. Yes, there are synthetics that do that too, but price them!!
Do you have experience applying 2lbs/m CGM in the spring?. What is your source that says CGM will take 18 to 20 weeks to release?.
I could not find the thread but I remember the moderator DcHall talking about applying CGM @ the recommended rate and the resulting rapid growth rate. I personally have seen excessive spring growth from slow release organic sources at far less than 2lb/m rates. Applying heavy rates of WIN in the fall vs. spring on cool season turf is a far different animal IMO
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  #32  
Old 03-29-2009, 08:42 PM
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bicmudpuppy bicmudpuppy is offline
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I've never applied CGM. I have applied Milorganite @ 2#/m and I've actually seen it go down at very close to 3#/m as a spring app. The purpose was organic matter and the results were dramatic, but nothing like applying even 1# of synthetic. The modern synthetics are much slower release than ferts used to be, but @ 3#/m of milorganite, I would compare the turf response to less than 1#N/m as Ammonium sulfate or Urea.
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  #33  
Old 03-29-2009, 11:10 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Originally Posted by Prolawnservice View Post
... Its all slow release, and your not applying salt, there will not be disease pressure from the thinning of cell walls that is caused by a spring synthetic fertilizer(salt) application. ...
Do you think there is any link to fert. and thinning cell wall?
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
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  #34  
Old 03-29-2009, 11:25 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Originally Posted by dishboy View Post
... I personally have seen excessive spring growth from slow release organic sources at far less than 2lb/m rates. ...
It is common to see -"EXCESSIVE' growth rates in the spring - no matter what you put down during the plants' dormancy...

Spring time N actually stunts the deep root development - in favor of surface root development. Doesn't matter though, the green is what the plant focusses on in spring time. Photosynthesis and sun is where the plant is going for food!! to last until next spring.

Did you know that the grass doesn't know that you are going to dump on 3 more # of N b4 the season is done? The plant doesn't count on that...
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  #35  
Old 03-30-2009, 02:33 AM
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JDUtah JDUtah is offline
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Originally Posted by TMGL&L View Post
salt doesn't feed microbe populations either
you might wanna do some more reading.. Urea has been documented to increase microbial degradation rates in compost piles.
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  #36  
Old 03-30-2009, 09:13 AM
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TMGL&L TMGL&L is offline
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ya but salt is a dessicant. I'm just repeating what I heard from other landscapers and from "Teaming With Microbes."

It's actually something I have been trying to research because I know adding N to compost makes the microbes grow like crazy. Then again, as my book says, bacteria and fungus (along with other microbes) need "bioslime," which is water to move and they need water to carry out their metabolic processes.

last time I saw a Salt vs. slug fight it was brutal.
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  #37  
Old 03-30-2009, 10:09 AM
timturf timturf is offline
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from Milorganite people, 1 lb of nitrogren from milorganite will last 6-8 weeks, if soil temps greater than 55 degrees

My comments

cgm, needs 20-40 lbs to acheive pre emerge control, depending on pressure and how many years applied or applications you have made

At least 2/3 of nitrogen for cool season turf should be applied fall or winter. Could consider all of n applied at this time
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  #38  
Old 03-30-2009, 10:27 AM
ICT Bill ICT Bill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timturf View Post
from Milorganite people, 1 lb of nitrogren from milorganite will last 6-8 weeks, if soil temps greater than 55 degrees

My comments

cgm, needs 20-40 lbs to acheive pre emerge control, depending on pressure and how many years applied or applications you have made

At least 2/3 of nitrogen for cool season turf should be applied fall or winter. Could consider all of n applied at this time
Tim,
This is a big reason why on our liquid corn gluten meal (Gluten-8) we have reduced the N to 1.5%. Many states have laws that you cannot apply more than 1 pound of N at any application. If you are applying 20 Lbs per 1000 of CGM you are applying 2 Lbs of N and breaking the fertilizer laws.

Our Gluten-8 product keeps you compliant
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  #39  
Old 03-30-2009, 10:32 AM
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bicmudpuppy bicmudpuppy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timturf View Post
from Milorganite people, 1 lb of nitrogren from milorganite will last 6-8 weeks, if soil temps greater than 55 degrees
It doesn't matter WHO said what. I have never seen any significant fert reaction from an organic like milorganite in less than 3-4 weeks. You don't put it down today for growth tomorrow. You put it down today for growth next month. My biggest worry with the fall application last year was that the weather wasn't going to hold until after I had it down for 4+weeks before ground temps dropped below an active temp. 55 sounds good, but things just slow down below that point. You get 10-15 degrees colder than that and most everything stops. It is also slow to re-start. What was still happening last fall at 45 doesn't re-start until you get well above 50. 52-53 degrees is usually my target temp in the spring that says that I need to get active before everything else does. Once it hits 55, your behind the curve. My expectations for Milorganite or similar products is that the only fert value I get is from the .5% water soluble and the iron response for the first few weeks. After that, the application rate is targeted for an 8-12 week response in warm weather and a 12-16 week response with cool temperatures.

Back to CGM. Corn gluten, as fertilizer, has yet to be composted, so should we not expect additional delays before that N is plant available? Somebody who has read the studies more thoroughly, or is more awake than I am, do the chemistry. My gut reaction would be an additional 4-6 weeks before we start to get some real benefit from the product as fertilizer. To me, this would mean that the Spring application as pre-m doesn't kick in as fert for two months. Shortly after that, we will be at a point where the repeat application of pre-m is needed for max control. Two months later, that N is going to start to be plant available. Now, we are at late summer or early fall? As was posted with the GA HO about bermuda, you have to get organic fertilizers down sooner than synthetics to hit your target fertilization time. I am not sure that CGM doesn't fit that scenario rather well with a very nice weed control benefit. Maybe it doesn't really react that slowly. Again, I wouldn't expect the fert benefit from the CGM prior to when I expected the herbicidal benefit to begin to wear out. My thought process would not expect both, simultaneously.
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  #40  
Old 03-30-2009, 10:35 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timturf View Post
cgm, needs 20-40 lbs to acheive pre emerge control, depending on pressure and how many years applied or applications you have made
There it is again .... the implication that CGM effectiveness increases over time.

I've asked this before, and I will ask it again. Where is the information with regard to the effective compound and the need for a "soil buildup"?

I have seen absolutely NO information with regard to this, and per studies I have read published by ISU, if the compound were persistent in the soil, eventually nothing would grow.

http://www.hort.iastate.edu/gluten/pdf/cornglut3.pdf
Observations during the study revealed that
the corn gluten meal had a growth-regulating effect on the root system of bentgrass. As
the level of application increased, root inhibition increased. Shoot development was
observed to be normal at all levels of corn gluten meal application. At lethal doses, no
root system developed and plants died when drying of the soil occurred.
In fact, I believe the opposite is true .... as microbial activity increases the effectiveness of CGM as a pre-m decreases. This is why timing of application is critical, because efficacy decreases over time.
In the original study, corn meal was observed to lose its inhibitory effect
on germination when it was used as a medium for microbial growth. Microbial activity
reducing the effectiveness of the inhibitory substance is the likely reason for the
somewhat more limited crabgrass reduction in 1988.
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