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  #41  
Old 03-30-2009, 09:37 AM
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tobylou8 tobylou8 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
I have never used pre-m on lawns, only spring overseeding.

Even in an unirrigated area with trees around - I wiped out a heavy infestation of Crabgrass - with a dormant seeding, overseeding later and reseeding in the fall, using the CGs' dead bodies as seed cover. There was a big improvement, in just the first season and by the next spring it was only grass.

That was a few years ago though. B4 I found the forum and learned that it can't be done.
That's funny! Of course you would have known that if you had a Phd!
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  #42  
Old 03-30-2009, 09:37 AM
timturf timturf is offline
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Location: central virgina, transition, plant hardy zone 7a, and heat index zone 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prolawnservice View Post
Tim,

I debated this with you a few years ago and you said you were going to research it and get back to me, but you never got back to answer(good to see you on, its been a while) http://http<b>://www.lawnsite.com/sh...p?t=189253</b> Bic made the exact point I did, Its all slow release, and your not applying salt, there will not be disease pressure from the thinning of cell walls that is caused by a spring synthetic fertilizer(salt) application. So again, why is it a bad idea?
Ok Pro,

Have no idea how long 20 or more lbs of gcm will last as a nitrogen source. My progran in zone 7, consist of 4 applications, with a total of 3 lbs/m of nitrogen from a bridge or fortified fertilizer. I do apply ~ 1 lbs/m of n in late winter and late spring, so their is no way I could apply 20lbs of gcm.

Didn't know salt caused disease, news to me!

Not all synthetic ferts have high salt index

Excess top growth at the expense of root structure

been to too many fert presentation of 2/3 of N in fall and winter for cool season turf, this not a topic of discussion

No, or very little spring summer nitrogen helps promote better root structure and hardens the plant off for the stress, which is very imporant here in the transition zone. Remember, your roots are always dieing and being replace, but not very fast in high soil temps for cool season turf

Why can you supposely can reduce n application by 50% if using an true organic? I believe the same can be done with synthetic, if you use a quality synthetic nitrogen source, something that you retain almost all of n applied, not lost to the air or leaching. Watch the salt and chlorine in ferts, don't forget mop.......Organic, 100% programs, I believe have a problem keeping the p2o5 low, and getting enough k. Is sop consider a natural fert and ok for a 100% organic program

I believe that cgm would be great on a warm season turf
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Timothy J Murphy Specializing in Quality Turf
Bs in Plant and Soil Science
Almost 40 yrs exp., 20 as GC superintendent
Primarly work with cool season turf
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  #43  
Old 03-30-2009, 09:39 AM
ICT Bill ICT Bill is offline
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That is, IF you get the moisture to break it down, we spoke to lots of folks last year that had a very dry spring and many of their sites still had CGM on the surface 6 weeks later. Not only was it not providing any pre-m traits but the Nutrients were not being released as well
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  #44  
Old 03-30-2009, 10:10 AM
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tobylou8 tobylou8 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timturf View Post
from Milorganite people, 1 lb of nitrogren from milorganite will last 6-8 weeks, if soil temps greater than 55 degrees

My comments

cgm, needs 20-40 lbs to acheive pre emerge control, depending on pressure and how many years applied or applications you have made

At least 2/3 of nitrogen for cool season turf should be applied fall or winter. Could consider all of n applied at this time
Not to start a fight, but... . Why is milorganite/biosolid called an organic when the EPA (no right wing think tank for sure) can't gaurentee public safety over it's use on crops , and as late as 2006 found PCB's (is that organic?) in milorganite? It has been documented to contain heavy metals (arsenic, cadmium (yummy), copper, etc.), aforementioned PCB's, dioxin (another organic product?), bromine and other flame ******ents as well as other human pathogens (diseases).And this was all found AFTER the "cleansing/purification" process! These studies are not ancient history (2000/2002). One EPA scientist calls milorganite " the last analytical frontier". He said it is a literal black hole, "We put stuff in and then we can't find it upon analysis, so we cannot with any certainty say what is/is not in it". Is that really what you want to put on your customers property? Why not just use chicken litter and/or mulch the grass (it's a green manure). And has already been mentioned, sow the daylights out the lawn and cut high. Just my 6 cents (adjusted for inflation ).
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  #45  
Old 03-30-2009, 10:39 AM
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JDUtah JDUtah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMGL&L View Post
ya but salt is a dessicant. I'm just repeating what I heard from other landscapers and from "Teaming With Microbes."

It's actually something I have been trying to research because I know adding N to compost makes the microbes grow like crazy. Then again, as my book says, bacteria and fungus (along with other microbes) need "bioslime," which is water to move and they need water to carry out their metabolic processes.

last time I saw a Salt vs. slug fight it was brutal.
If you ever find a study that demonstrates 4-6 lbs N applied over 5 apps in a year actually does harm soil microbes let me know. So far the evidence I have seen slants the other way.

Salt, as in fertilizer, as in dossolvable, is the only form nutrients can be absorbed by plants. Microbes turning organic ferts into salts is what makes the organic ferts available to the plants. So why do the microbes create the salts? For the plants? No.. they break down the complex molecules into salt ions so they can use them themselves. In other words salts are food for microbes.

Everyone is talking about CG becoming available to the plant... It all depends on how well/quickly you get the microbes to break it down into salts. Not enough water=not enough microbes=slow or no release... wrong temp for microbes=not enough microbe activity for them to break it down (into salt ions)... etc

The problem starts when you get too high of a concentration of salts. This is where the confusion comes in. Claims have been popularized without any real study investigating if the normal use of mineral fertilizers (4-6 lbs N over 5 apps in a year) causes a toxic concentration of salts (plant and microbe food)...

my general opinion... if the concentration is balanced enough to grow healthy plants, it is balanced enough to grow microbes... generally speaking.
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  #46  
Old 03-30-2009, 10:49 AM
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tobylou8 tobylou8 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
If you ever find a study that demonstrates 4-6 lbs N applied over 5 apps in a year actually does harm soil microbes let me know. So far the evidence I have seen slants the other way.

Salt, as in fertilizer, as in dossolvable, is the only form nutrients can be absorbed by plants. Microbes turning organic ferts into salts is what makes the organic ferts available to the plants. So why do the microbes create the salts? For the plants? No.. they break down the complex molecules into salt ions so they can use them themselves. In other words salts are food for microbes.

Everyone is talking about CG becoming available to the plant... It all depends on how well/quickly you get the microbes to break it down into salts. Not enough water=not enough microbes=slow or no release... wrong temp for microbes=not enough microbe activity for them to break it down (into salt ions)... etc

Thank you for a brief and yet succinct response as to why organics work or not.


The problem starts when you get too high of a concentration of salts. This is where the confusion comes in. Claims have been popularized without any real study investigating if the normal use of mineral fertilizers (4-6 lbs N over 5 apps in a year) causes a toxic concentration of salts (plant and microbe food)...

my general opinion... if the concentration is balanced enough to grow healthy plants, it is balanced enough to grow microbes... generally speaking.
Thank you!
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  #47  
Old 03-30-2009, 11:22 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
The problem starts when you get too high of a concentration of salts. This is where the confusion comes in. Claims have been popularized without any real study investigating if the normal use of mineral fertilizers (4-6 lbs N over 5 apps in a year) causes a toxic concentration of salts (plant and microbe food)...
And what if your soil already has a high SAR or EC? I fear you are over simplifying and generalizing a rather complex set of conditions that can occur in a synthetic only program and even some organic programs depending on the source material.

Fact of the matter is, if salt inputs exceed outputs, you will get an increase in salts.

How many people here monitor their plant nutrient uptake to ensure what is put down is also consumed?

How about the osmotic potential of your soil solution?
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  #48  
Old 03-30-2009, 12:10 PM
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JDUtah JDUtah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
And what if your soil already has a high SAR or EC? I fear you are over simplifying and generalizing a rather complex set of conditions that can occur in a synthetic only program and even some organic programs depending on the source material.

Fact of the matter is, if salt inputs exceed outputs, you will get an increase in salts.

How many people here monitor their plant nutrient uptake to ensure what is put down is also consumed?

How about the osmotic potential of your soil solution?
I understand what you are saying. The fact is that general blanket claims for both fert and organic have been made, and neither is an end all...

The best way to do it is to understand thoroughly your soil, irrigation water, and available ferts (organic and synthetic)
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  #49  
Old 03-30-2009, 01:09 PM
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tobylou8 tobylou8 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
I understand what you are saying. The fact is that general blanket claims for both fert and organic have been made, and neither is an end all...

The best way to do it is to understand thoroughly your soil, irrigation water, and available ferts (organic and synthetic)
AMEN!Finally someboby that doesn't have terminal myopia! You can fert my lawn anytime.
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  #50  
Old 03-30-2009, 03:09 PM
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JDUtah JDUtah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tobylou8 View Post
AMEN!Finally someboby that doesn't have terminal myopia! You can fert my lawn anytime.
The contract is in the mail!

To their credit, I think most people in this forum like Kiril, Tree, etc. have, and do use synthetics when appropriate. IMO promoting organics just makes them come across as uncompromising at times.

Last edited by JDUtah; 03-30-2009 at 03:18 PM.
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