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  #41  
Old 02-15-2009, 02:29 PM
ricky86 ricky86 is offline
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How are they thousands cheaper than other brands? Are they just keeping the price (and profit) low for all the poor landscapers? A unit that large should have a 21CC pump on it. Pumps are the "weak" link in the system. Especially HydroGear. Most wheel motors are overbuilt for the application anyway (unless they are HydroGear). Little things like that add up. Thus the lower price. We are entertaining the possibility of taking them on as a price point, and price point only. There is no best Z out there (yet). All have good/bad points. Personal opinion makes a brand the best. But that just my opinion.
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  #42  
Old 02-15-2009, 02:40 PM
gladi8r gladi8r is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricky86 View Post
How are they thousands cheaper than other brands? Are they just keeping the price (and profit) low for all the poor landscapers? A unit that large should have a 21CC pump on it. Pumps are the "weak" link in the system. Especially HydroGear. Most wheel motors are overbuilt for the application anyway (unless they are HydroGear). Little things like that add up. Thus the lower price. We are entertaining the possibility of taking them on as a price point, and price point only. There is no best Z out there (yet). All have good/bad points. Personal opinion makes a brand the best. But that just my opinion.
Why not find a dealer in your area and try a Lightning or AOS out (don't bother with the ZT or Pup- They're 'homeowner' grade, albeit good quality, but not commercial units like the Lightning or AOS. There's no substitute for first-hand experience with one.

As to why the're less expensive, it's simple- the cost of USA manufacturing is lowest in places like rural Arkansas, where the cost of living is very low, good folks work cheap, and businesses can operate with less overhead. Utilities, insurance, and building space are very cheap where Bad Boy is located. Also, they keep most of the fabrication in-house. Of course, the most important reason they're less expensive- they are passing any savings on to us customers, instead of milking every dime to improve some false shareholder bottom-line like most publicly-held corporations who have to awnswer to boards and stockholders. Bad Boy does business the way business USED to be done in this country- Hard work, quality products, pass savings to customers. More power to 'em.
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  #43  
Old 02-15-2009, 02:41 PM
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nosparkplugs nosparkplugs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricky86 View Post
How are they thousands cheaper than other brands? Are they just keeping the price (and profit) low for all the poor landscapers? A unit that large should have a 21CC pump on it. Pumps are the "weak" link in the system. Especially HydroGear. Most wheel motors are overbuilt for the application anyway (unless they are HydroGear). Little things like that add up. Thus the lower price. We are entertaining the possibility of taking them on as a price point, and price point only. There is no best Z out there (yet). All have good/bad points. Personal opinion makes a brand the best. But that just my opinion.
The CEO of Bad Boy is an engineer, and the Owner of largest fireworks distrubution company/supplier in the USA. When he Started BB it was not totally about money or profits. Cause he is already rich, passing it on needs apply.


The AOS diesel uses the same brand Hydro pumps as the Scag TT, so your saying Scag is cheap too

Last edited by nosparkplugs; 02-15-2009 at 02:46 PM.
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  #44  
Old 02-15-2009, 02:53 PM
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puppypaws puppypaws is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricky86 View Post
A unit that large should have a 21CC pump on it. Pumps are the "weak" link in the system. Especially HydroGear. Most wheel motors are overbuilt for the application anyway (unless they are HydroGear).
This is interesting, I did not realize Hydro-Gear made inferior pumps. Where did you come up with this information and what do you consider the best hydraulic pumps for this application?
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  #45  
Old 02-15-2009, 05:50 PM
ricky86 ricky86 is offline
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Where I get my information is 25 years experience at a large dealer working on zero turns, wam, and handheld.
Pumps are subject to spikes especially if the dampeners are bad. The larger the pump the less it has to work. There were no alternatives until recently. I think the intergrated hydro transmissions are superior to the separate pump and wheel motor. We are a HydroGear dealer, and have seen many quality issues with brgs from China. Believe it or not. I don't really care. These threads that turn into a "which is better" are endless.
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  #46  
Old 02-15-2009, 06:14 PM
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nosparkplugs nosparkplugs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricky86 View Post
Where I get my information is 25 years experience at a large dealer working on zero turns, wam, and handheld.
Pumps are subject to spikes especially if the dampeners are bad. The larger the pump the less it has to work. There were no alternatives until recently. I think the intergrated hydro transmissions are superior to the separate pump and wheel motor. We are a HydroGear dealer, and have seen many quality issues with brgs from China. Believe it or not. I don't r eally care. These threads that turn into a "which is better" are endless.
To my knowledge, Scag, Toro, Exmark, Hustler, Bunton, Gravely, Dixie Chopper. Sure I left someone out, all use a separate Hydropump/wheel motor for years
No alternatives until recently, where did that come from? I have been purchasing ZTR's for over 10 years now, and no matter the ZTR brand it has always been a separate pump, and wheel motor set-up. The Walker is the only Hydrogear drive ZTR I own to date. the Bad Boy Pup or Z Line-Up have the Hydrogear drive set-up, but their not "commercial" use.

A JD F-680 7-Iron front mower, I owned for almost ten years great pump & wheel motor design. I had zero trouble out of the pumps or wheel motors was nothing fast at 8mph, but zero trouble for us.

John Deere has had mixed reviews with it's single body Kanzaki Pump system.

It sounds like you have a vested interest in the single Hydrogear drive system, and maybe have lost business to alternative hydro drive options.
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  #47  
Old 02-15-2009, 07:59 PM
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puppypaws puppypaws is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricky86 View Post
Where I get my information is 25 years experience at a large dealer working on zero turns, wam, and handheld.
Pumps are subject to spikes especially if the dampeners are bad. The larger the pump the less it has to work. There were no alternatives until recently. I think the intergrated hydro transmissions are superior to the separate pump and wheel motor. We are a HydroGear dealer, and have seen many quality issues with brgs from China. Believe it or not. I don't really care. These threads that turn into a "which is better" are endless.
No, I honestly think it is interesting to hear information from people with different experiences. The "which is better" is always a matter of preference for the most part.

It is interesting to hear you speak of pressure spikes. Hustler had some problems with the Hydro-Gear 21 cc pumps. I actually talked with an engineer at Hydro-Gear and he explained the pressure spikes from operation of the mowers on non slippage surfaces. People jerk the faster Super Z's around on non slip surfaces and the internal pump parts on that certain pump could not handle the pressure. The only thing changed was they beefed the same pump up with longer shafts and have since had no more problems.

This is why it is interesting to hear other opinions from different people.
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  #48  
Old 02-15-2009, 08:14 PM
ricky86 ricky86 is offline
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No, I have no vested interest and no, lost no business either. And you have been lucky. Problems I've seen have been mostly with 10cc and 12cc pumps in the past 3 yrs. Thrust brgs disintegrating. The pistons would groove or distort the race to the point of failure. The cage for the brg will come apart and wipe out the pump. Or input shaft brg failure. Inspection revealed components were from China. Part failure or overloading ? Companies don't admit to these things, EVER. Smaller pumps work harder than larger pumps was my original point. Move more fluid, get more work done. That can't be argued. And puppypaws, spikes are a fact of life with Z's (as I stated about the dampeners). Don't you think the component (pump) should be able to hanlde the environment it was intended to work in? And the 21cc pump is the largest in the "Batam" series 10cc 12cc 16cc + 21cc

Last edited by ricky86; 02-15-2009 at 08:19 PM.
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  #49  
Old 02-15-2009, 08:32 PM
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Illini_Fan Illini_Fan is offline
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I hope this will help

The pump and wheel motor combinations that Bad Boy uses, were designed and fitted to Bad Boy Mowers by Hydro-Gear. From the large oil tank, to the sizes of the pumps and wheel motors, Bad Boy and Hydro-Gear worked together to come up with a system that robs less horsepower from the deck. For example, the orifice size in a Bad Boy pump is larger than what is common in other machines. This allows more flow and requires less horsepower. Bad Boy also has spike relief valves that keep the pumps from spiking in forward and reverse.

By the way, the mower garage is about 300,000 square feet. I will see if I can find an aerial picture to post.
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  #50  
Old 02-16-2009, 12:06 AM
ricky86 ricky86 is offline
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Most OEM's use the valves in the pumps. The larger oil supply is a good idea to keep operating temps down. If they use HydroGear wheel motors (HGM-E) keep an eye on the output shaft for oil leaks. Make sure you get it taken care of under warranty. TORO used them on their Z593 diesels, and I replaced a bunch of them. Time will tell. The CAT diesel is a great engine. We have about 6 out in Ferris ISZ5000. Air filters, oil filters and fuel filters are all that been needed. Units have over 2000 (hard municipal use) hours. Your BB's and those Ferris will be long gone but the engine could last forever, or at least a very long time.
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