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  #31  
Old 02-16-2009, 08:52 AM
DVS Hardscaper's Avatar
DVS Hardscaper DVS Hardscaper is online now
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Originally Posted by LB1234 View Post
So because I rent the trencher attachment that is a knock against me? Damn, not only do I install the pop-ups, I RENT the trencher. Is this a three strikes and you are out business?

LB, it's called sharing a good investment for a useful tool that both saves you money (rental fees and time spent picking up and dropping off), and makes you money.
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  #32  
Old 02-16-2009, 09:13 AM
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DVS I love how you think your gods gift to landscaping. Pop-ups work just fine if they are installed correctly with a deep hole filled with gravel under the pop-up elbow. Yes I agree that daylighting the pipe is best but not every job is that easy. Say you have a level lot with no way to daylight a pipe, are you going to saw cut a hole through a curb to drain it to the street? Or cut a hole in a sewer or waste water pipe to drain your downspout pipe? I think not, you try those things here and get caught your ass will be in a sling.
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  #33  
Old 02-16-2009, 09:41 AM
CertPro CertPro is offline
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For me, if I had a skid steer, I wouldn't buy a trencher. I would sooner invest in a mini x. It's better for excavation and you can get an 8" bucket to dig all the trenches you want. Now I do understand that a trencher is way less expensive than a mini x, but I believe that if you are truly dedicated to hardscaping and want to become more efficient a skid steer/mini x combo is the way to go
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  #34  
Old 02-16-2009, 09:53 AM
tatmkr tatmkr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVS Hardscaper View Post
One thing that surprises me is that most hardscape guys own a fancy smancy skid steer....but they don't have a trencher attachment!

Back in 2001 we bought a trencher for our skid steers. Back then paid around 3 grand for it. Thats one of the best investments made. Now, a trencher won't dig a pit for a dry well, but on the other hand we don't do many dry wells, maybe 1 to 2 a year, some years - zero. We can run down spout lines out and away from the dwelling and hardscape very inexpensively, no renting the machine, no rushing around to return it to the rental company.
I would rather spend the $80 to rent the ditch witch, than create additional yard damage with a loader. Most of the french drain trenches I have put in are in areas that are already soft from the water issue at hand. We even did yard repair for a homebuilder and spent a goos part of the year installing the drains and still never found the justification or need to buy the attachment. That thinking there (oh I want it so I will buy it) is why most companies don't make it past the 5 year mark. Of curse if you sit down and the numbers actually work for what you ar doing with it than thats fine. Most of us rarely need to do so much trenching.
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  #35  
Old 02-16-2009, 09:56 AM
tatmkr tatmkr is offline
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Really? All these topics and we are at 4 pages on pop ups? lmao
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  #36  
Old 02-16-2009, 10:06 AM
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zedosix zedosix is offline
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Originally Posted by tatmkr View Post
Really? All these topics and we are at 4 pages on pop ups? lmao
Its a good topic though, it makes you think about what you're doing and if there are better ways of doing it. Thats what these sites are good for. Just push aside the garbage and ingest what you need. I only keep answering because I'm trying to catch up with DVS's thread count.
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  #37  
Old 02-16-2009, 10:19 AM
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STL Ponds and Waterfalls STL Ponds and Waterfalls is offline
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Originally Posted by zedosix View Post
Its a good topic though, it makes you think about what you're doing and if there are better ways of doing it. Thats what these sites are good for. Just push aside the garbage and ingest what you need. I only keep answering because I'm trying to catch up with DVS's thread count.
LOL! Well said!
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  #38  
Old 02-16-2009, 11:08 AM
LB1234 LB1234 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVS Hardscaper View Post
LB, it's called sharing a good investment for a useful tool that both saves you money (rental fees and time spent picking up and dropping off), and makes you money.
It may make good business sense for YOUR business, but not MINE. I can count on one hand the amount of times we rent our trencher within a year. At $85 a pop for the attachment renting it say 4x/yr thats less than 400 bucks. Say I can get a used one for 3 grand (tough but I've seen them). This does NOT make good business sense for me.
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  #39  
Old 02-16-2009, 11:21 AM
DVS Hardscaper's Avatar
DVS Hardscaper DVS Hardscaper is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danscapes View Post
DVS I love how you think your gods gift to landscaping. Pop-ups work just fine if they are installed correctly with a deep hole filled with gravel under the pop-up elbow. Yes I agree that daylighting the pipe is best but not every job is that easy. Say you have a level lot with no way to daylight a pipe, are you going to saw cut a hole through a curb to drain it to the street? Or cut a hole in a sewer or waste water pipe to drain your downspout pipe? I think not, you try those things here and get caught your ass will be in a sling.

Like I said - 13 years and no pop-up to this date. It's my opinion that they should not be used in climates where the elements of winter exist.

One of the aspects I like abour internet forums is that people put words into your mouth when the writing is there in black and white. Per your post, No where did I EVER mention utilizing a "sewer or waste water pipe to drain", nor did I EVER mention "cutting a hole in a curb". Such a practice is something that is not even an option for my small company.


My point is this:

All I am doing is provoking thought.

Frankly, I don't care how anyone does things. People do things wrong all over the world every day. People do things right every day. If we all did things the same way - we would all be equal. And if we were all equal - we'd all be competing with one another. It's our ("our" as in we as business owners) individual methods, beliefs, experiences, etc that are what make us whatever it is that our clients like us for. There could be 25 hardscape contractors in one town. But does that mean you have 25 competitors??? No, it doesn't. Not by any stretch. The only ones that are your competitors are the ones that are equal to you. Equal in craftsmanship, equal in customer service, and so forth.

It's my opinion that a pop up is a lame way of addressing drainage issues. Build a $20,000(+) patio and address the drainage with a mechanical component that is susceptable to freezing and failure? To me thats like building a million dollar home with vinyl siding instead of brick, stone, stucco, etc.

Who here has actually put your boots on, hopped in the trusty pick up truck and gone out and checked their emitters in weather conditions as depicted in the photo I posted??

Standing water in pipes that are not placed below the frost line will freeze.

Water around the perimeter of the piece that "pops" up that freezes can prevent the unit from performing. Gravel around the pop-up still freezes! Frozen water = water that doesn't flow!

Think about it - large jet liners have onboard de-icing equipment. If a hydraulic flap that operates from hundreds/thousands of P.S.I. on a wing can freeze up - the so can a mechanism that functions solely on hydrostatic gravity.


Here's a challange!

To make a valid argument that they do work and do not fail I would like for anyone that is in an area where there is a layer of ice on the snow like the pic I provided to randomly go out to a job site and take a picture of the spot where the emitter is. The temps must be close to or below the freezing mark. If there is snow or ice around it or overit - don't disturb it. Be honest and take a pic. If the emitter performed as expected and the snow and ice is melted - take a picture and then I just may be a believer that they do work
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My Equipment Brag List:

-1 CAT hat
-16 pairs of Hanes socks (the Heavy Duty model), many with holes.
-12 pairs of underwear, ranging from Joe Boxers to Jockey, many are in need of replacement. (no more photo requests please)
-hundreds of t-shirts. Some w/ grease stains, some torn & tattered.
-7 pairs of jeans, ranging from Levis to Polo to GAP. 1/2 of them have holes in 'em.
-1 belt
-1 pair of old worn out Nike shoes.

Last edited by DVS Hardscaper; 02-16-2009 at 11:26 AM.
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  #40  
Old 02-16-2009, 11:38 AM
DVS Hardscaper's Avatar
DVS Hardscaper DVS Hardscaper is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CertPro View Post
For me, if I had a skid steer, I wouldn't buy a trencher. I would sooner invest in a mini x. It's better for excavation and you can get an 8" bucket to dig all the trenches you want. Now I do understand that a trencher is way less expensive than a mini x, but I believe that if you are truly dedicated to hardscaping and want to become more efficient a skid steer/mini x combo is the way to go

And I don't think any reasonable individual can argue that.

But here are some advantages to having a dedicated trencher:

1) You can transport the skid steer and trencher in one trip. The trencher can either be placed in the back of the truck, or if your trailer is around 18" long, it can go on either the front or the back of the trailer along with the skidsteer with bucket attached. If you built a hardscape that does not require an excavator, and you need to bury down spouts - then you'll need to do 2 transports. one to mobilize the skid steer, and a second to mobilize the excavator.

2) Productivity. A trencher is far more productive than an excavator. Here's an example: I once opened over 100 yards of trench to install a cable television line. The trench was about 2-feet deep. 100(+) yards, 2-feet deep, from start to finish took under 25 minutes.
__________________
"It's You vs. You"

"People Throw Rocks At Things That Shine"


My Equipment Brag List:

-1 CAT hat
-16 pairs of Hanes socks (the Heavy Duty model), many with holes.
-12 pairs of underwear, ranging from Joe Boxers to Jockey, many are in need of replacement. (no more photo requests please)
-hundreds of t-shirts. Some w/ grease stains, some torn & tattered.
-7 pairs of jeans, ranging from Levis to Polo to GAP. 1/2 of them have holes in 'em.
-1 belt
-1 pair of old worn out Nike shoes.
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