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Old 03-05-2009, 12:38 PM
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JoeyD JoeyD is offline
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LED's Magazine

I found this interesting......

http://ledsmagazine.com/news/6/1/26




Letter to the Editor: White LEDs fail to match hype
26 Jan 2009
A lighting designer and specifier explains why he has stopped using white LEDs.
[Comment on this issue via our Blog entry "White LEDs fail to match hype".]
Dear Sir

As an exhibition designer and lighting specifier I have been a keen advocate of white LED lighting in exhibitions, but recently I have had to reconsider this decision. There is an urgent need for the white LED lighting industry to develop a more transparent and meaningful framework for the specification and performance rating of white LED-based lamps.

If this is not done then I believe that many of the developmental gains of the last few years may be squandered as users are put off by the poor performance of some products.

High failure rates and very rapid phosphor degradation has made manufacturers claims of 50,000-hour lifetimes seem, at best, grossly exaggerated hyperbole and, at worst, deliberate deception.

A recently surveyed exhibition, containing 48 GU10-base lamps, revealed that in 2500 hours of operation, light output had fallen by between 82 and 87%, while 12% of the lamps had failed electronically.

Given that the purpose of a lamp is to provide useful light, while the LED emitters themselves may well function for the 50,000 hours claimed, the actual life of a lamp is determined by the useful phosphor life, which does not even begin to approach this figure.

In reporting this sort of performance to suppliers I have been surprised at how little they know about the true performance of the products they are selling. As white LED lighting becomes more prevalent it will be distributors and retailers that will bear the brunt of customer dissatisfaction and may well fall foul of advertising standards regulations.

It is only market pressure that will force manufacturers to specify their products more transparently and direct resources into solving these challenging problems.

In the meantime I have been forced to replace whole lighting systems at my cost and consequently I have had to take the decision to not specify white LED lighting until such time as I can be confident in the specifications and lamp life.

Unless the true performance of white LEDs can be dramatically improved or costs substantially reduced then this technology may yet prove to be a dead man walking.

Frazer Monks
Exhibitas Design
Newport on Tay, Fife, Scotland
Email: Frazer Monks
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Old 03-05-2009, 04:32 PM
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Tomwilllight Tomwilllight is offline
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Great Post Joey!!! Go to the blogs

More information is available on the blogs attached to the article.

I see that you have used LED lamps with LEDs packaged in standard halogen lamp package and that's one of the big errors made by a big number of LED lamp manufacturers without sufficient technical knowledge of LED technology. For the best of its use LED lighting shall be apply differently to the standard lighting technologies, LEDs shall be properly packaged taking into account the heat dissipation criticality.

The LED killer is heat and white LED's are particularly sensitive. Put them in a sealed fixture designed for halogen and you have problems. Unless, of course, you work in a cold climate with short summers.

Tom
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Old 03-05-2009, 09:57 PM
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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting is offline
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The LED killer is heat and white LED's are particularly sensitive. Put them in a sealed fixture designed for halogen and you have problems. Unless, of course, you work in a cold climate with short summers.

Tom
OR - Unless you develop unique, proprietary driver technology which actually results in cooler running LED chips, combined with well engineered heat sinks that take the thermal issues into consideration.

It IS possible to build LED lamps that meet all of the operating requirements of the LEDs themselves. Kumho's Luxxo is one example, as is the CRS product. Both of these product lines perform very well, and keep the LEDs operating below manufactures heat specifications, even when installed in sealed fixtures. The G4 Bi-Pin LED lamp that I am having made for my company shares these features as well.

Neither the letter that Joey posted, nor the information that Tom referred to names the specific lamps or manufacturers used. There is a TON of cheaply made, poorly engineered LED lamps on the market. I know I have tested well over 100 of them. That doesn't mean that it is impossible to build good product.
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Old 03-05-2009, 10:15 PM
MAGLIGHTING MAGLIGHTING is offline
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There are two sides to every story and sometimes there is a hidden agenda in these blogs/articles etc.

If you've put alot of money into developing a technology and support it then obviously you are going to talk positively about it at all times and promote it.

If you've got your money in conflicting or competing technology your story will be different.

One thing is for sure that everyone's perception of brightness is different. Not much ambiguity with lamp life and longevity. Either it holds it's efficiency for somewhere close to it's claims or it doesn't.

The jury is still out and time will tell.

Right now there are too many uncertainties to jump in with both feet.

I've been burned too many times before by wild manufacturers claims regarding outdoor lighting. I have an open mind but I'm sticking with what has worked and will continue to work and those are halogen MR-16 lamps.
They have some deficiencies but it's the best we've got right now. Why fix it if it's not broken?
My biggest concern regarding LED's are that they will take the technical and electrical engineering hurdle out of the way and will open the door for every Tom, Dick, and Harry to become a lighting installer. You think you've got competition from gardeners, landscaper, electricians, handyman now? You ain't seen nothin' yet.
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Old 03-06-2009, 12:01 AM
dglights dglights is offline
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I just pulled up the Luxxo spec sheet James. Is this the lamp with 4 chips?

There are to many unknowns from Joey's post to really determine exactly what happened with those lamps. What was their maximum operating temp, what was their wattage, what was there life rating, what LED was used, were they quality lamps, where were they installed exactly, did the specifier know the maximum ambient temp for his application? All we know is he used LED lamps and experienced failures and diminished light output in a very short period of time. With light output dropping over 80% in 2500 hours I don't think he even had high brightness LEDs but rather the old pin style which are known for their rapid light loss. I believe his experience and we also need more info to really figure out what happened and how it would apply to our industry.

Don't expect much from these lamps. There's a certain wattage limit for their size and not much you can do about it except know the limitations and use it accordingly. Tom's post sums it up, LEDs and electronics are sensitive to heat so make sure the lamp or fixture is designed correctly.

Comments like, MR16s not being broken so why fix them? LED fixtures can be installed by any DIY? seem to be based on fear of the unknown. If LED fixtures can be installed by anyone then there's plenty wrong with halogen. There will always be a need for professional installation. It's lighting design, there's creativity involved, skill required. I wouldn't want to be a DIY trying to figure out which direction to go with LED. LED lamp or LED specific fixture, what wattage, what optic etc? Now is a great time to differentiate yourself with product knowledge.
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Old 03-06-2009, 12:30 AM
MAGLIGHTING MAGLIGHTING is offline
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Originally Posted by dglights View Post
I just pulled up the Luxxo spec sheet James. Is this the lamp with 4 chips?

There are to many unknowns from Joey's post to really determine exactly what happened with those lamps. What was their maximum operating temp, what was their wattage, what was there life rating, what LED was used, were they quality lamps, where were they installed exactly, did the specifier know the maximum ambient temp for his application? All we know is he used LED lamps and experienced failures and diminished light output in a very short period of time. With light output dropping over 80% in 2500 hours I don't think he even had high brightness LEDs but rather the old pin style which are known for their rapid light loss. I believe his experience and we also need more info to really figure out what happened and how it would apply to our industry.

Don't expect much from these lamps. There's a certain wattage limit for their size and not much you can do about it except know the limitations and use it accordingly. Tom's post sums it up, LEDs and electronics are sensitive to heat so make sure the lamp or fixture is designed correctly.

Comments like, MR16s not being broken so why fix them? LED fixtures can be installed by any DIY? seem to be based on fear of the unknown. If LED fixtures can be installed by anyone then there's plenty wrong with halogen. There will always be a need for professional installation. It's lighting design, there's creativity involved, skill required. I wouldn't want to be a DIY trying to figure out which direction to go with LED. LED lamp or LED specific fixture, what wattage, what optic etc? Now is a great time to differentiate yourself with product knowledge.

Comments like, MR16s not being broken so why fix them? LED fixtures can be installed by any DIY? show me where I mentioned anything about DIY?

seem to be based on fear of the unknown. If LED fixtures can be installed by anyone then there's plenty wrong with halogen. This statement makes no sense at all. What are you trying to say?

There will always be a need for professional installation. It's lighting design, there's creativity involved, skill required. I wouldn't want to be a DIY trying to figure out which direction to go with LED. LED lamp or LED specific fixture, what wattage, what optic etc? Now is a great time to differentiate yourself with product knowledge. I speak from a contractors standpoint and You have no clue the challenges that each and every contractor faces everytime he goes out to sell a project no matter how good or how established. Again show me where I said anything about the DIY that you keep referencing. Sorry but you haven't convinced me

By the way , are LED threads (because you sell them) the only ones you contribute to here?
Yes they are. I've just checked your 18 posts and everyone of them has to do with LED's.
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Old 03-06-2009, 12:55 PM
dglights dglights is offline
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Mike, your biggest concern with LEDs are that they will take the technical and electrical engineering hurdle out of the way and will open the door for every Tom, Dick and Harry to become a lighting installer. If that's true then halogen must be more difficult to install than LED. Is that really your biggest concern?

I've installed entire systems before and have spoken to many contractors about their challenges so I wouldn't make the assumption I have no clue what your challenges are. If you were more specific about your challenges I might be able to help. For example many contractors are submitting bids for halogen and LED. This provides and advantage over someone who is only able to offer 1 or the other. This was my point about increasing your product knowledge and using it to help you. What happens frequently is the higher cost LED system makes the halogen system look pretty reasonable. Although the cost difference is decreasing between the two and the end user is becoming more aware of the value of LED.

This isn't the place to promote LED products its more like getting beat-up. If I wanted to promote I would have a logo, photo and link. LED is what I do and that's where you'll find my posts. I have an opinion about pierce point connectors and FX's use of Italian names but I just don't feel compelled to get in the mix on those. I don't make LEDs, I buy them and use them. The same challenges I've gone through are similar to what everyone is going through now with selecting LED lamp, led specific, what's this what's that. There are a lot of questions and I try to help out. I've even given Joey some advice in the past. Standards are being slowly put in place.

Do you want to discuss halogen vs led and which is best? I was hoping James would confirm the Luxxo lamp since LED lamp failure was the start of this thread.
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Old 03-06-2009, 09:02 PM
MAGLIGHTING MAGLIGHTING is offline
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Originally Posted by dglights View Post
Mike, your biggest concern with LEDs are that they will take the technical and electrical engineering hurdle out of the way and will open the door for every Tom, Dick and Harry to become a lighting installer. If that's true then halogen must be more difficult to install than LED. Is that really your biggest concern?

I've installed entire systems before and have spoken to many contractors about their challenges so I wouldn't make the assumption I have no clue what your challenges are. If you were more specific about your challenges I might be able to help. For example many contractors are submitting bids for halogen and LED. This provides and advantage over someone who is only able to offer 1 or the other. This was my point about increasing your product knowledge and using it to help you. What happens frequently is the higher cost LED system makes the halogen system look pretty reasonable. Although the cost difference is decreasing between the two and the end user is becoming more aware of the value of LED.

This isn't the place to promote LED products its more like getting beat-up. If I wanted to promote I would have a logo, photo and link. LED is what I do and that's where you'll find my posts. I have an opinion about pierce point connectors and FX's use of Italian names but I just don't feel compelled to get in the mix on those. I don't make LEDs, I buy them and use them. The same challenges I've gone through are similar to what everyone is going through now with selecting LED lamp, led specific, what's this what's that. There are a lot of questions and I try to help out. I've even given Joey some advice in the past. Standards are being slowly put in place.

Do you want to discuss halogen vs led and which is best? I was hoping James would confirm the Luxxo lamp since LED lamp failure was the start of this thread.

No that is incorrect, my biggest concern is that they are not going to do what they are said to do and that is to perform and last.

I installed over 5,000 fixtures last year. I don't want to have to go back and replace failed equipment or field calls from dissatidfied clients who've paid a premium for the product.

For me this does not make financial sense until the technology has fully proven itself in the outdoor environment. Maybe for some guys who install lighting occasionally but for me it's not worth the risk.

My slogan is Low voltage landscape lighting systems Designed and built to last. My reputation rides on it.
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Old 03-06-2009, 09:43 PM
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Tomwilllight Tomwilllight is offline
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For me this does not make financial sense until the technology has fully proven itself in the outdoor environment....
My slogan is Low voltage landscape lighting systems Designed and built to last. My reputation rides on it.
Amen Mike!

In an industry that has been plagued with too much unprofessional practice, it's more important to be reliable than it is to be the first.

Tom
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Old 03-06-2009, 09:58 PM
MAGLIGHTING MAGLIGHTING is offline
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Amen Mike!

In an industry that has been plagued with too much unprofessional practice, it's more important to be reliable than it is to be the first.

Tom
You are absolutely 100% correct Tom.
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