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  #11  
Old 03-06-2009, 11:22 PM
dglights dglights is offline
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If you're installing halogen fixtures then it's guaranteed your going back to replace lamps. The halogen system is pretty unreliable if you think about it. Everyone expects the halogen to fail and they're only a few dollars to replace. If the LED lamp fails before it's time though then this is very bad because they're quite a bit more. More importantly the reputation of the individual who selected the lamp is tarnished or worse. The burden of lamp selection falls on the specifier/installer along with the responsibility and accountability of ensuring it's up to the task.

How will you know when or if LED lamp technology is ready?

I think it would be best to say what you want and expect from this technology. I see a lot of feedback on the transformer thread (can I get a 100Watt by the way with all the bells and whistles please especially the LED light inside) I just got the latest issue of Architectural SSL and every time there are more companies involved and lots of discussion as to how this technology should be handled. Architects and specifiers are definitely providing there feedback, good and bad. There are good examples of LED specific fixtures too like Cree's LR6 downlight, it's won awards and I haven't heard anything negative about this fixture since it's release a few years ago. There's an article about Zumtobel's redesigned Aero lamp using LED technology. I think Zumtobel is a reputable company concerned with their reputation and I also think they took the time to do it right.

If you're going to say LED lamps are no good then you should say why. Like I measured the heatsink of brand X and it was over 200F at room temperature or there are 4 LED chips off center in relation to the reflector so how can that be the most efficient design. If you don't know the questions to ask or what to look for how will you know when you can use it?
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  #12  
Old 03-07-2009, 08:14 AM
MAGLIGHTING MAGLIGHTING is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dglights View Post
If you're installing halogen fixtures then it's guaranteed your going back to replace lamps. The halogen system is pretty unreliable if you think about it. Everyone expects the halogen to fail and they're only a few dollars to replace. If the LED lamp fails before it's time though then this is very bad because they're quite a bit more. More importantly the reputation of the individual who selected the lamp is tarnished or worse. The burden of lamp selection falls on the specifier/installer along with the responsibility and accountability of ensuring it's up to the task.

How will you know when or if LED lamp technology is ready?

I think it would be best to say what you want and expect from this technology. I see a lot of feedback on the transformer thread (can I get a 100Watt by the way with all the bells and whistles please especially the LED light inside) I just got the latest issue of Architectural SSL and every time there are more companies involved and lots of discussion as to how this technology should be handled. Architects and specifiers are definitely providing there feedback, good and bad. There are good examples of LED specific fixtures too like Cree's LR6 downlight, it's won awards and I haven't heard anything negative about this fixture since it's release a few years ago. There's an article about Zumtobel's redesigned Aero lamp using LED technology. I think Zumtobel is a reputable company concerned with their reputation and I also think they took the time to do it right.

If you're going to say LED lamps are no good then you should say why. Like I measured the heatsink of brand X and it was over 200F at room temperature or there are 4 LED chips off center in relation to the reflector so how can that be the most efficient design. If you don't know the questions to ask or what to look for how will you know when you can use it?
In your opinion MR-16's are pretty unreliable. I don't share that opinion. Your argument is not strong enough to change my opinion not one iota regarding LED's.

Again I never said they were no good. Right now I have much to lose and zero to gain by "experimenting" with un field proven product. Pioneers come home with arrows in their backs. I'll stick with my unreliable MR-16's for the time being thank you
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  #13  
Old 03-07-2009, 11:07 AM
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The Lighting Geek The Lighting Geek is offline
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I believe what is lacking in terms of LEDs, is standards to be tested by. If there were standard benchmarking of every lamp, with specified tests so we can do an actual comparison, many people could at least know when it is time to use LED lamps. I am talking about using a group of different fixtures so they are tested in real world conditions, a scale to rate the results on color rendition, temperature, lumen output, etc. Then we can actually compare products. Right now many of the lamp info for halogen are based on bare bulb tests in unrealistic conditions, not real world. They do a pretty good job comparing and benchmarking computer components, maybe we could hope for something similar.
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  #14  
Old 03-07-2009, 09:09 PM
David Gretzmier David Gretzmier is offline
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I've posted enough on the LED argument that everyone knows what side I am on. I know what to expect with halogen and have built my business plan around annual replacement. I know what to promise and what I can deliver. With LED's there has been a 5-10 year promise, with 5-10 years of miserable failure.

Only recently have I heard from James that there are a small minority of the lights out there, one or three out of 100, that perform properly and indeed have lasted a year or so out in the field. Compare this to the 70-80%, or solid majority of mr16 and g6 bulbs out there that, at the right voltage, will perform properly and last a year in the field.

It also makes sense that if LED's are able to work at all voltage levels that could possible come out of a trans and land at a fixture, then you have removed or reduced sharply one of the barriors of entry into this field, which is a technical knowledge of line load and voltage drop. Yes, you should also have a business sense and a science/art feel for locating, placing and aiming fixtures, along with that voltage expertise. However, all of us seem to rail against the majority of installers who seem to fail at all areas anyway, regardless of if they have LED's in thier hands or not. If LED's will make more installers, my guess is most of them still won't be good at what they do.

My two biggest issues with Led's are simple- number one- They will completely erode the selling value of your business, probably on the factor of 90%. with no rebulbs, you have no residual sales, and no residual value. don't believe me, then ask any business broker. number 2, LEd's reputation is already those ugly solar things from internet and everywhere else. I will have to completely re-educate the client. not really interested in that.
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Last edited by David Gretzmier; 03-07-2009 at 09:13 PM.
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  #15  
Old 03-07-2009, 10:10 PM
dglights dglights is offline
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Mike I'm glad you never had the opportunity to tell Steve Jobs pioneers go home with arrows in their backs! The last time I read a post with you saying that was May 17, 2007. Almost 2 years later and no arrows and don't forget I started way before then. No Pioneers, nothing gained. I suppose low voltage lighting just appeared one day.

Thank you Tommy for bringing up the standards and not the arrows. Standards are in place and products are being tested. Standards are also changing to keep up with fixture design. The popular opinion in LED circles is why are we trying to fit a new technology into an old fixtures. LED technology requires thermal management which existing halogen fixtures and sockets do not provide.
New LED specific fixtures are the only success stories out there.
David can you provide the brand of lamp and fixtures used? I'm curious to know if they were large or compact fixtures. What failed, LED or electronics?

We need to produce better green products that are inline with everything else that's going on. If you think LEDs have issues then sell me on all the benefits of halogen.
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  #16  
Old 03-07-2009, 10:49 PM
MAGLIGHTING MAGLIGHTING is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dglights View Post
Mike I'm glad you never had the opportunity to tell Steve Jobs pioneers go home with arrows in their backs! The last time I read a post with you saying that was May 17, 2007. Almost 2 years later and no arrows and don't forget I started way before then. No Pioneers, nothing gained. I suppose low voltage lighting just appeared one day.

Thank you Tommy for bringing up the standards and not the arrows. Standards are in place and products are being tested. Standards are also changing to keep up with fixture design. The popular opinion in LED circles is why are we trying to fit a new technology into an old fixtures. LED technology requires thermal management which existing halogen fixtures and sockets do not provide.
New LED specific fixtures are the only success stories out there.
David can you provide the brand of lamp and fixtures used? I'm curious to know if they were large or compact fixtures. What failed, LED or electronics?

We need to produce better green products that are inline with everything else that's going on. If you think LEDs have issues then sell me on all the benefits of halogen.
Sherman your arguments are real weak. I don't wish to waste anymore time debating you over this. Keep doing what you are doing and I'll keep doing what I'm doing. Again I disagree with you . It is not my responsibility to save my client electricity at the cost of ineffective lighting. "We" don't have to do anything but provide our clients with the best effective lighting system that's available today and that is not LED. Low voltage halogen is very energy efficient. It's the best that's out there performance to energy consumption ratio hands down. Considering that 75% of the lighting I do is with 20 watt lamps I'm not out there driving up my clients energy bills.

I did a job this summer where LED's were specified for step lights. I told the architect that I wanted nothing to do with them so they had the electrical contractor install them. I did a site walk 2 weeks ago with the owner because she wants more lighting. The first item on her list was to "properly" light the steps. These fixtures are of european manufacture. These LED cheek wall installed lights are blinding to the eye yet they put no usable light on the steps where needed. It's downright dangerous. The photometry of the fixture/lamp is terrible. They do look high tech during the day though I'll give you that. Too bad I don't install lighting for the ornamental value of the fixture though.

Steve Jobs? He's a perfect example of someone who came home with arrows in his back. For the first 20 years the company was a failure and nearly went out of business. He wasn't around for much of that time either. If it wasn't for Bill Gates bailing Apple out so he could sell them software there would be no Apple today.

If your technology takes 20 years to perfect and become profittable as Apple computers has then I guess we'll all have a long time to wait. Steve Jobs is a pioneer and a genious but he was no overnight success and it took many generations and development of product before becoming so.

Sherman Gingerella may some day achieve the same . Until then I don't want to hear anymore of your nonsense.
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  #17  
Old 03-08-2009, 11:33 AM
irrig8r irrig8r is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAGLIGHTING View Post

Sherman Gingerella may some day achieve the same . Until then I don't want to hear anymore of your nonsense.
Jeez Mike, who died and made you emperor of the lighting universe?

Sherman knows his business.

Some of us would like to hear more.

Have you tried any of his fixtures? The way I understand it they are specifically engineered for LED use and not retrofits of existing fixtures...

Sure, it's relatively new technology... but I'm keeping an open mind.... not jumping on any bandwagons yet, but willing to give a few a try...
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  #18  
Old 03-08-2009, 03:02 PM
MAGLIGHTING MAGLIGHTING is offline
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Until then I don't want to hear anymore of your nonsense.

I added the smiley face. That was supposed to be a joke.
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  #19  
Old 03-08-2009, 05:15 PM
irrig8r irrig8r is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAGLIGHTING View Post
Until then I don't want to hear anymore of your nonsense.

I added the smiley face. That was supposed to be a joke.
Thanks for the clarification Mike.

And I hope your neighborhood is as beautiful as it is here today...deciduous trees in bloom, a few puffy clouds in a bright blue sky. Sun shining on my back.

Life is good.

Smileys seem to have a calming effect on everybody these days, even though they were so ubiquitous I got sick of them in the 70's
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  #20  
Old 03-08-2009, 05:35 PM
irrig8r irrig8r is offline
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BTW.... off on a little tangent... who invented the smiley?

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...he-smiley-face

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Ball

http://slick.org/deathwatch/mailarchive/msg00253.html
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Last edited by irrig8r; 03-08-2009 at 05:40 PM.
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