Register free!


Reply
 
Thread Tools   Display Modes
  #21  
Old 03-12-2009, 11:07 AM
NightScenes's Avatar
NightScenes NightScenes is offline
LawnSite Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kingsland, Texas
Posts: 2,196
So far I have had GREAT results using the Kichler LED products and will really start promoting them this year.
__________________

Paul R Gosselin, Sr., CLVLT(#0632)
NightScenes Corporation
Director, AOLP
www.night-scenes.com
www.facebook.com/NightScenes
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-12-2009, 11:08 AM
JoeyD's Avatar
JoeyD JoeyD is offline
LawnSite Silver Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Escondido, CA
Posts: 2,965
Thumbs up

Thanks for the challenge Jack but I don't think I will be leaving sunny California anytime soon. If I was to do a comparison it would be on 20w and 35w halogen lamps vs. your LED and it wouldn't just be in a room or in a controlled environment but it would be on a real job with real lighting situations including tall architectural highlights, full mature trees, and low lying foliage and paths. Next thing to do would be to leave those lights up for 2 years and then come back and asses them. See who's weathered better and see who's STILL HAD better light output. See who's still were easily adjusted and see who's could adapt other lamps for a changing landscape and environment.

See the problem with the challenge you laid out is it really says nothing about landscape lighting. So what if the LED looks like it has good intensity and color today. We all know that you guys are producing a solid LED with great initial performance. But its that LED system that will hinder the true designer and contractor in the long haul. If and when your LED's fail then a contractor is replacing entire fixtures..but it has a warranty..not a big deal unless that contractor has to make multiple trips to perform the work and is forced to make multiple splices in performing the replacement of the faulty fixture. What if the tree this contractor lights is only 10ft tall today but then grows to 20ft in 24months? Do you just tell him to replace the light with a more powerful LED fixture when the time comes or do you tell him to over power the tree with a higher wattage LED for 2 years? Does your warranty on limited output cover plant growth?

There's more to it then my light output is as good as yours. It really comes down to who can deliver the whole package and consumers know that Unique is always thinking of the contractor first. What makes the installer happy and what can we do to insure the installer has minimal call backs over the life of the system.

My last question is when will the technology catch up with the hype and will there be a better LED technology next year and the year after that? Something tells me there will be and those installing LED units today will soon find in 1-2 years all those units on all those homes are now obsolete.

Now as for my exaggerated comment in regards to your letter. If it wasn't slander then why did you only choose to really point out energy savings on LED vs halogen which we know is a no brainer and why did you feel the need to mention UL/ANSI compliant before the name Kichler every time? Are you implying we are not UL/ETL/ANSI tested and compliant? That sure is how it reads. You never once mention our UL/ETL/ANSI listings, instead you decide to instill in this letter that we are dangerous and unlisted which is not true at all. When breaking down your installation vs. our system install you also forgot to mention that your system requires 2 connections for every fixture.....you certainly did not forget to mention our Hub connections. And lastly if it was just a fair comparison then why did Mr. Dross finish the piece off with this....

"Often times, the value of a new idea is over hyped and then under performs. It is likely that, after the smoke clears, the 24v concept will disappear."

Thanks for the fair debate here! We should do it more often!! Good luck in 09 and I mean that with all sincerity.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-12-2009, 11:19 AM
NightScenes's Avatar
NightScenes NightScenes is offline
LawnSite Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kingsland, Texas
Posts: 2,196
Just out of curiosity Joey, are your fixtures tested and listed for 24 volt use???? What standard are your fixtures tested to? You mention ETL listing but what standard are those listings tested to?

Just wondering out loud
__________________

Paul R Gosselin, Sr., CLVLT(#0632)
NightScenes Corporation
Director, AOLP
www.night-scenes.com
www.facebook.com/NightScenes
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-12-2009, 11:22 AM
JoeyD's Avatar
JoeyD JoeyD is offline
LawnSite Silver Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Escondido, CA
Posts: 2,965
All 24v units are approved by ETL to UL1598 Standards.

I still think its funny how our 24v systems got painted as being so dangerous in that letter when Kichler sells 120v as if its safer? LOL
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-12-2009, 11:35 AM
NightScenes's Avatar
NightScenes NightScenes is offline
LawnSite Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kingsland, Texas
Posts: 2,196
Alliance takes their shot

This was a thread about Kichler's new catalog until some decided to start taking some shots. Here's something that fits into the threads new direction. It makes perfect sense if you understand electrical theory.
Attached Images
 
__________________

Paul R Gosselin, Sr., CLVLT(#0632)
NightScenes Corporation
Director, AOLP
www.night-scenes.com
www.facebook.com/NightScenes
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-12-2009, 12:00 PM
JoeyD's Avatar
JoeyD JoeyD is offline
LawnSite Silver Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Escondido, CA
Posts: 2,965
Whoa!

Funny.......Alliance and Aquarius produced the same exact letter with the same exact verbiage in the same exact format. One with an Alliance Logo and another with an Aquarius logo! ..........Too funny!!!


here is our response...and the beat goes on...........


1. Watts = Watts

Aquarius/Alliance is correct in this statement. What they neglect to discuss is that the watts you start with are not the watts your energy bill is based on.

See Total Lamp Watts at the bottom of the comparison page (CHART1 ATTACHEMNT). The watts that energy consumption is based on are the Total Watts. The difference between 12 V and 24 V is 38 watts.

The difference of 38 watts will save the home owner approximately $8.52 a year. Imagine the difference for larger jobs? Commercial applications?


2. Energy Loss and Cost Savings in Wire

Aquarius/Alliance must be charging their customers too much for 14/2 wire.

We purchase 14/2 for .07 cheaper A FOOT than we do 12/2. We are confident that Aquarius’/Alliance purchases must be similar in cost.

Cost basis alone shows that a 1000 foot reel is $70 cheaper than a reel of 12/2.

3. Don’t Be Fooled by Amps (Amps=Watt/Volts)


Exactly!!! They are right in everything they say here.

But 120 and up voltage requires the services of an electrician. It requires conduit and burying the wire deeper. Different permits, etc.

4. Future of the Industry

We do not believe that the industry is driven by lamp manufacturers. 24 Volts has been in existence for many years. GE made the 24 V Par 36 because we ASKED them to.

If Aquarius/Alliance want to let another industry determine what types of systems and fixtures they design, that is their prerogative.

In addition, we do not believe that LED is where it needs to be to base an entire system on. The lamps prices are currently too high. The fixtures that contain a ballast (instead of the lamp and ballast combined) have limited life spans. The rated life span of the lamps have not yet stood the test of time. Someday? Possibly. Today, when we need to save our contractors and our environments resources, 24V is doing that.

Regarding their comment on homeowners replacing lamps, we should be teaching our contractors to be more pro-active by using proper documentation (lamp replacement charts, etc.) Also, homeowners replace 12 volt lamps with wrong 12 volt lamps everyday, wrong wattage, wrong beam spread, incandescent for halogen…….While the result MAY not be instant blowing of the lamp, similar types of problems do occur. System over-volted and transformer fuse blows, etc.)

5. Higher Material Costs and & Higher Lamp Replacement Costs

Yes, at present 24 V Lamps are higher in price than 12 V Lamps. This is less due to the technology than it is to our quantity based discounts on lamps. The more 24 Volt lamps we sell, the better we will be able to purchase them for.

Below is a listing of our best selling lamps and the differences in price.

(see attached CHART)


Please refer to your Intelli Book for other job comparisons, etc.
Attached Images
   
Attached Images
File Type: pdf Intell Book Feb 5 2009.pdf (842.9 KB, 4 views)

Last edited by JoeyD; 03-12-2009 at 12:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-12-2009, 12:16 PM
JoeyD's Avatar
JoeyD JoeyD is offline
LawnSite Silver Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Escondido, CA
Posts: 2,965
I am curious if Alliance's letter still makes perfect electrical theory sense??
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-12-2009, 12:27 PM
NightScenes's Avatar
NightScenes NightScenes is offline
LawnSite Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kingsland, Texas
Posts: 2,196
Yes it does actually.
__________________

Paul R Gosselin, Sr., CLVLT(#0632)
NightScenes Corporation
Director, AOLP
www.night-scenes.com
www.facebook.com/NightScenes
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 03-12-2009, 12:38 PM
irrig8r irrig8r is offline
LawnSite Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 4,545
Thank you both for presenting the different sides of the issue in an easy to grasp format.
__________________
Landscaper. Irrigator. Illuminator. Music lover. Coffee drinker.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 03-12-2009, 12:50 PM
NightScenes's Avatar
NightScenes NightScenes is offline
LawnSite Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kingsland, Texas
Posts: 2,196
Happy to Gregg.
__________________

Paul R Gosselin, Sr., CLVLT(#0632)
NightScenes Corporation
Director, AOLP
www.night-scenes.com
www.facebook.com/NightScenes
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump






Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1998 - 2012, LawnSite.com™ - Moose River Media
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:56 AM.

Page generated in 0.11372 seconds with 8 queries