New Kichler Catalog

[JoeyD]

Does it make sense outside of electrical theory?

Do you believe that a distributor and or manufacturer get charged more for smaller guage wire?

Do you believe that the industry is controlled by LAMP manufacturers and not by Product Manufacturers, Distributors, and Contractors (not in that order)?

Do you believe that a 12v system is as or more efficent than 24v?

Do you believe their spin that 120v lighting is 10 times better low voltage 24v?

All I know as long as these letters keep coming it just means we are doing something right!!! Someone feels threatened. If LED's were so great they wouldnt need to attack us right????

[NightScenes]

Joey, this is where you just don't get it. These are not attacks by any of the manufacturers, they are simply comparing their mouse trap to yours. They feel that they have a better product or a better system and choose to show the differences and flaws. Are you trying to tell me that Unique has never compared their product to others??? Has Unique never tried to compare their brass fixtures to another manufacturers cheaper counter part to show it's superior??? It's called competition, not attacks.

[JoeyD]

Your correct Paul, I tend to get easily defensive. I guess since we are usually the only ones making the systems that seem to be "compared" to it is easy for me to view it as an attack. It is also how they are written. Us comparing Brass or Copper to Aluminum is a GENERAL comparison. Us comparing 24v to 12v is a GENERAL comparison. We are not singling anyone out. It is rare and I mean R A R E that we will ever go on an offensive at any one manufacturer (copy cat knockoffs are usually the target if and when we do and that is for obvious reasons).

But going to back to how they are written. As I mentioned in the Kichler letter, it is easy to pass the letter off as just a comparison. But where it becomes an attack in my opinion is when they choose to ignore us being ETL approved and before the name Kichler they drop "UL/ANSI Approved" in front of it almost EVERY TIME. Leads the reader to believe we are not approved and therefore are not safe. They knew exactly what they were doing in writing it that way. And then topped it off with hat closing statement that our system is nothing more than smoke in mirrors. Call it what you want but at that point they are essentially calling us liars.

In that letter by Alliance/Aquarius above it makes it seem as if we are ling to everyone, that 14/2 is more expensive or is the same price as 12/2? As for watts/watts argument that is just there lack of knowledge when it comes to energy consumption. But you see it easy for a reader to see that letter and take it all at face value and next thing you now we are painted exactly how they wanted to have us painted when writing that piece. Heck, you are an electrician and you see it as making perfect sense, what do you think a non electrician is going to think if that's the only thing they have to go by when it comes to 24v.

We would much rather promote our NEW and EXCITING products then sit here on Lawnsite or at a customers place of business and constantly defend our self and our systems. But these "comparisons" force us to do so, then when we do guys try and paint us as bad guys failing to acknowledge who started the battle in the first place. Are we aggressive? Of course! But don't think for one minute that battling these guys system to system is how we want to spend our day. If they just would just send out letters promoting their systems and leave us out then there would be no issues and no hi jacked threads!!! LOL

Maybe I don't get it, but one of these days maybe our competition that loves to go to battle with us will learn that when you name drip us and our system and paint it to be what it is not to benefit yourself that it will only hurt you more because we will always come with the facts.

[JoeyD]

I meant name drop* above, not drip! LOL That last sentance is a run on but when read slowly it makes sense!! LOL

Sorry for the hi jack guys. You know I am only hear to participate and help when I can. I hate when a thread turns to this.

[INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting]

Originally Posted by bmwsmity

Well, once the aim is adjusted and the screw tightened, it is actually difficult to get it back out of its position, so the adjustment stays well.... Until there is an impact...from a gardener (shovel, rake etc) or a shovel or a foot. Then the impact causes the fixture head to want to move, the set screw gouges into the nylon ball knuckle and well you get the idea. Beat one of these things on your shop bench. I did at a trade show. Oh well. I just cannot see how plastic/nylon/composite has any place being used on such and expensive fixture.

The assembly is lame though... Yes... agreed.

And the deck lights are actually very nice. Installed them for one of my best clients and they love them...they are not remotely driven, btw... just regular wires...and at 1.9w, you can use small gauge wire that hides more easily in a deck application. I was referring specifically to the 15710BK units, which do require a remote driver and are ugly as "HE-double hockey sticks". As for fitting LEDs into the existing line of post light products, well there are serious limitations to that idea. Again, this is where LED LAMPS make more sense... I like to tailor the light output of niche fixtures such as post lights to the application. I do this by switching out lamps. With integrated LED fixtures, you do not have this flexibility. What do you do if you install 12 LED post light fixtures and then find out the client would prefer things just a bit less bright? Screwed by the "system". LED lamps offer greater design flexibility and will allow for "on-the-fly" changes as necessary.
Just wanted to point those items out

There is a market for integrated LED fixtures, but I am not buying until the manufacturers start putting more effort into the form these fixtures take, and until they build them so that they can be effectively serviced in the field.

[INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting]

Originally Posted by JoeyD

... See who's still were easily adjusted and see who's could adapt other lamps for a changing landscape and environment.

See the problem with the challenge you laid out is it really says nothing about landscape lighting. So what if the LED looks like it has good intensity and color today. We all know that you guys are producing a solid LED with great initial performance. But its that LED system that will hinder the true designer and contractor in the long haul. If and when your LED's fail then a contractor is replacing entire fixtures.. A very wasteful process! and then what does Kichler do with these? Toss them out or 're-manufacture' them? but it has a warranty..not a big deal unless that contractor has to make multiple trips to perform the work and is forced to make multiple splices in performing the replacement of the faulty fixture. What if the tree this contractor lights is only 10ft tall today but then grows to 20ft in 24months? Do you just tell him to replace the light with a more powerful LED fixture when the time comes or do you tell him to over power the tree with a higher wattage LED for 2 years? Joey makes an excellent point here. How does the contractor adjust for changes in the landscape over time with integrated LED fixtures? Toss out the whole fixture and pick something different? Then what? Sell that old fixture on another job as used goods? I really think that fixture manufactures should focus on building the best fixtures possible, leave the lamp manufacturers to build the lamps/light sources. Trying to do it all, and have it all, seldom works out.

My last question is when will the technology catch up with the hype and will there be a better LED technology next year and the year after that? Something tells me there will be and those installing LED units today will soon find in 1-2 years all those units on all those homes are now obsolete. Another excellent point and another reason why using new lamp technology trumps using new fixture technology. As the technology advances and improves, you can always return to update the lamps! We already have near perfect fixtures that have been developed over decades at our disposal. Why try to re-invent all those wheels?
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LED lamp technology is advancing and improving very quickly. New LEDs with outputs above 100 Lm/watt are being implemented, new heat sink technologies are being employed, and more and more beam spreads, intensities and formats are being made available. In another post I will show you what a MAJOR lamp manufacturer has recently released in Europe. The market for LED lamps is so much more massive than the market for integrated LED fixtures, just in retrofits alone is is a multi-billion dollar industry already. We are on the precipice of a major wholesale change in lamps, mark my words.