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  #101  
Old 06-14-2009, 08:40 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Gee Ted, Got Issues?

What is the most important part of an organic program or any program for that matter? Soil organic matter!

What is the quickest and most effective way to build up soil organic matter? Compost!

Time for you to step off your pedestal and join the land of the living.

Oh and ......... Compost Does A Soil Good!
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  #102  
Old 06-14-2009, 09:26 AM
NattyLawn NattyLawn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ted putnam View Post
I see you've got your panties in a wad again...what's new?? I was just having a little fun. I thought Lawnsite was supposed to be entertaining as well as informative. TG and I had our disagreements but she knows her stuff and she has a pretty good sense of humor...unlike some folks. She could also have a tone of arrogance at times but also knew how to treat people with some respect no matter who they were or what their background... and then there are those like you that lack that character trait.

Wannabe was just looking for ways to get his lawn to be "comparable" to others in his neighborhood who are using synthetics without using what he considers to be possibly dangerous or detrimental to his "personal space". In my opinion he deserves a little respect for that. While compost may do a soil good, that's a pretty general statement and he is not so naive as to believe that is all it will take to give the results he would like. He was looking for ideas. He wasn't looking for campaign slogans like "Milk, it does a body good!" or sustainability political agendas to be shoved down his throat. Some in this forum have some great information and ideas. Some are like broken records that spit out the same "one liners" no matter what thread you happen to be reading and of course there's your kind...arrogant a$$holes.
I think you're the one that can't take the joke. I was taking one of Rod's classic quotes and using it over here. If one of us would have posted what you did in "your" forum it would have been another 50 page thread.

As far as your arrogant a$$holes comment, IMO I refer to those people who are so set in their ways that they refuse to consider or put down people who have different ways of doing things. Go over to the pest forum and the nail that sticks out gets hammered down by the forum bullies. You like the T3000? No the Z-Spray is the best. I loved that thread where Rod wouldn't let Ray do his review of both machines. "You're not comparing apples to apples." No shat buddy, they're two different machines. Over here we're all applying different materials to reach the same goal (except for Marcos and Dishboy). If you don't think I've helped anyone, go read my past posts.

Also, Treegal had a ton of info to offer, but she wasn't this gentle person that people are making her out to be. She was often rude, when you could understand her posts, but she got a free pass in many cases cause she's a female, which happens more often than not for any woman in a male dominated industry.
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  #103  
Old 06-14-2009, 11:07 AM
dishboy dishboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NattyLawn View Post
I think you're the one that can't take the joke. I was taking one of Rod's classic quotes and using it over here. If one of us would have posted what you did in "your" forum it would have been another 50 page thread.

As far as your arrogant a$$holes comment, IMO I refer to those people who are so set in their ways that they refuse to consider or put down people who have different ways of doing things. Go over to the pest forum and the nail that sticks out gets hammered down by the forum bullies. You like the T3000? No the Z-Spray is the best. I loved that thread where Rod wouldn't let Ray do his review of both machines. "You're not comparing apples to apples." No shat buddy, they're two different machines. Over here we're all applying different materials to reach the same goal (except for Marcos and Dishboy). If you don't think I've helped anyone, go read my past posts.

Also, Treegal had a ton of info to offer, but she wasn't this gentle person that people are making her out to be. She was often rude, when you could understand her posts, but she got a free pass in many cases cause she's a female, which happens more often than not for any woman in a male dominated industry.
Two questions
!. How is my my choice of materials different than others, is not everybody using waste stream materials to feed microbes and adding OM to increase SOM?

2. Who appointed you forum policeman?

Last edited by dishboy; 06-14-2009 at 11:13 AM.
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  #104  
Old 06-14-2009, 12:46 PM
WannaBeOrganic WannaBeOrganic is offline
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Let's get to the heart of the matter. This all started because I bumped the thread to clarify that Microbial Soil Conditioner and Kelp Booster contained calcium carbonate and not calcium magnesium carbonate.

Obviously some of you are very strongly pro or anti magnesium and you're hiding behind compost, politics, synthetic vs organic, creationism vs evolution, facial hair, etc arguments just because you don't want to expose your true love or hate for magnesium.

Guys. It's just a mineral, there's no reason to start a war over it. There is room in this world both magnesophiles and magnesophobes to peacefully coexist. In fact, that's what makes this country so great. Everyone grab a beer and relax.

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  #105  
Old 06-14-2009, 06:41 PM
phasthound's Avatar
phasthound phasthound is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WannaBeOrganic View Post
Let's get to the heart of the matter. This all started because I bumped the thread to clarify that Microbial Soil Conditioner and Kelp Booster contained calcium carbonate and not calcium magnesium carbonate.

Obviously some of you are very strongly pro or anti magnesium and you're hiding behind compost, politics, synthetic vs organic, creationism vs evolution, facial hair, etc arguments just because you don't want to expose your true love or hate for magnesium.

Guys. It's just a mineral, there's no reason to start a war over it. There is room in this world both magnesophiles and magnesophobes to peacefully coexist. In fact, that's what makes this country so great. Everyone grab a beer and relax.

Amen, too much testosterone, not enough beer. Flying Fish Amber Ale is my favorite.
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  #106  
Old 06-14-2009, 07:27 PM
Marcos Marcos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ted putnam View Post
Wannabe was just looking for ways to get his lawn to be "comparable" to others in his neighborhood who are using synthetics without using what he considers to be possibly dangerous or detrimental to his "personal space". In my opinion he deserves a little respect for that. While compost may do a soil good, that's a pretty general statement and he is not so naive as to believe that is all it will take to give the results he would like. He was looking for ideas. He wasn't looking for campaign slogans like "Milk, it does a body good!" or sustainability political agendas to be shoved down his throat. Some in this forum have some great information and ideas. Some are like broken records that spit out the same "one liners" no matter what thread you happen to be reading and of course there's your kind...arrogant a$$holes.
Here here!
Compost does not work in every specific landscape situation, nor is all homeowner clientele accepting of the use of it... by a long shot.

There are multiple ways to skin this same cat.
And at the end of the day, any practical combination of these means can be viable for a successful end result, assuming both parties are communicating & working together from beginning to end.
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  #107  
Old 06-14-2009, 09:35 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcos View Post
Compost does not work in every specific landscape situation
I happen to agree, but go ahead and name some real reasons, not "my client doesn't like it" or "compost doesn't support the local farmers".

While you are at it, please address what can be used to replace it and how much material and time will be required to accomplish the same result.

Let's say the desired result is raising SOM by 5%.
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  #108  
Old 06-15-2009, 09:21 AM
Marcos Marcos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
I happen to agree, but go ahead and name some real reasons, not "my client doesn't like it" or "compost doesn't support the local farmers".

While you are at it, please address what can be used to replace it and how much material and time will be required to accomplish the same result.

Let's say the desired result is raising SOM by 5%.
All righty, then....just off the top of my head....

1) areas where turf is historically subject to high storm erosion
2) new, compacted clay in turf that's not yet been adequately aerated
3) high traffic areas particularly those adjacent to entrance ways, where it could be quite easily tracked in the building by kids, hot-box break-time smokers, you name it.
4) in any situation where a client isn't interested in using it, for any reason.

Replacements (for both lawn & garden):

Corn gluten
corn meal
bone meal
blood meal
kelp meal
dried molasses
soybean meal
alfalfa meal
cotton seed meal


Raising OM by 5%
Who cares?
What does this number matter, so long as the results are there, and the customers are happy?
Frankly, this question never comes up, even when doing quotes to municipalities & higher-end sports turf.
So, what's the point in even bothering?

We promote a program of 4 applications / year of mixed protein meals at 15- 20 # / 1000 sq.ft
Either that, or topdressing w/ compost 2 X / year, spring & fall.
It really matters nothing to me, profit-wise, whitch option a prospective customer chooses.
In fact, if they wanted to for whatever reason, they may opt to go with something like this for 2009, for a lawn that had a bit of a pH problem, for example:

__________

Round 1, March/ April: Corn gluten meal (40 # / 1000 rate) Sidewalk / driveway 'hard' edges only, cotton seed meal (15-20# / 1000 sf) in balance of lawn

Round 2 , May/June: Cotton seed meal (15-20# / 1000 sf) entire lawn.
IPM treat any pests as needed.

Round 3, August/September: Aerate after irrigation, then seed and topdress with 1/4 to 1/3 " finished compost

____________

Consumers like vendors with a certain amount of FlExiBiLitY in their programs!
You should know that by now, Kiril!

Material & time? Haven't we gone over this before, Kiril?
Of course, it would take 4 total stops out to this customer's lawn to meet the same level of OM as compost.

So, what's our advantage, then?
Generally, MUCH, MUCH less charge per app with the use of meals as a soil food, but were there (obviously) more often to go over any questions the customers may have, and to IPM any especially-troublesome weeds / insects, if the customers wish us to do so.

You see, Kiril, we're not just out there selling compost & protein meals,
we're selling S-E-R-V-I-C-E
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  #109  
Old 06-15-2009, 09:53 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: District 9 CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcos View Post
1) areas where turf is historically subject to high storm erosion
Compost reduces erosion substantially.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcos View Post
2) new, compacted clay in turf that's not yet been adequately aerated
Huh? What does this have anything to do with compost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcos View Post
3) high traffic areas particularly those adjacent to entrance ways, where it could be quite easily tracked in the building by kids, hot-box break-time smokers, you name it.
Never been an issue on any property I have used it on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcos View Post
4) in any situation where a client isn't interested in using it, for any reason.
Guess when your pushing feed grains what do you expect?


Now how about some real reasons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcos View Post
Replacements (for both lawn & garden):

Corn gluten
corn meal
bone meal
blood meal
kelp meal
dried molasses
soybean meal
alfalfa meal
cotton seed meal

Raising OM by 5%
Who cares?
Really ... who cares? And you call yourself an "organic" provider? Stop beating around the bush Marcos. How much material and at what cost will it take to replace a comparable amount of compost? I need a 1/2" of organic matter for 1000 square feet. Pick any one of the compost reports I posted and do the math Marcos using the materials you listed. Don't worry, I don't expect you to do it because we all know what the result will be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcos View Post
What does this number matter, so long as the results are there, and the customers are happy?

Frankly, this question never comes up, even when doing quotes to municipalities & higher-end sports turf. So, what's the point in even bothering?
FYI, some places require a certain % of SOM in the soil during construction, or did you miss that thread? According to your argument, why even bother with organics? You can do the same thing with chems "so long as the results are there, and the customers are happy".

So lets get down to it Marcos. Do you manage soil or do you maintain turf because your "program" is essentially no different than your standard chem program which maintains turf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcos View Post
You see, Kiril, we're not just out there selling compost & protein meals,
we're selling S-E-R-V-I-C-E
Exactly. Your bottom line is profit margin, which I suspect is the only reason you push organics .... because it is more profitable for you to do so. It seems quite apparent to me you could care less for the reasons behind organic land management, and only care about what is easiest for you to do at the highest profit margin.

Last edited by Kiril; 06-15-2009 at 09:57 AM.
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  #110  
Old 06-15-2009, 10:14 AM
Grohorganic's Avatar
Grohorganic Grohorganic is offline
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oh no now we are going to beat up compost???? WTF lets try and stay civil and let science and not some mindless notion guide us....

In almost every situation there is a need for compost, but the type of compost and the amount can be greatly debated and mused over, that said lets play nice for a second
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