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  #111  
Old 06-15-2009, 12:09 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grohorganic View Post
oh no now we are going to beat up compost???? WTF lets try and stay civil and let science and not some mindless notion guide us....

In almost every situation there is a need for compost, but the type of compost and the amount can be greatly debated and mused over, that said lets play nice for a second
That is what I can't understand here. Marcos claims to use compost at times, then comes after me for suggesting using compost. It appears he simply has a problem with anyone who has a dissenting opinion. Witness his childish rants in multiple forums against people who disagree with him. I feel using feed grains simply shifts the problem from one location to another. It is not solving anything. This is especially true when there are more attractive alternatives (i.e. waste products like compost, feather meal, bone meal, blood meal).

I have said time and time again, to the point of being a broken record, that compost is only part of the solution, may not be suitable in certain soils, may be most successful when bridged with chems, ect.... However the part compost plays is essential in any organic program that is geared towards moving a system toward self-sustainability (i.e. a closed system). If that is not the goal of organic land management then what is?

IMO, almost every organic program should start with compost. Sadly people like Marcos, Ted, and all their buddies don't care about what is actually stated, or what actually works, but instead only care about picking sides based on some idiotic political line they think exists.

As you have pointed out, the type of compost may or may not be appropriate for the situation. This is where I was going with the question, reasons why a particular compost may not be suitable for a given site as it applies to building and managing soil. Instead I get the same lame excuses with not a single a viable reason for not using compost.

I guess dumping all that organic matter in land fills is a better solution .... well at least to Marcos et. al. it is.
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  #112  
Old 06-15-2009, 12:50 PM
ICT Bill ICT Bill is offline
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What I have been taught and maybe it is wrong, is the only bad compost is putrified compost, compost that has gone anerobic

I looks like compost but has no value as a soil amendment, all of the nutrients have been stripped and it probably harbors pathogens

What is interesting is that there is a company out there selling putrified compost, they take food waste and have a process (that is patented) that putrifies the food waste in anaerobic conditions. The end product is sold as a fertilizer after adding Nitrogen to it, I believe it comes out of the process as a 0-0-0. I'm not saying the product has pathogens but I do wonder about its value as a soil amendment
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  #113  
Old 06-15-2009, 01:21 PM
Marcos Marcos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grohorganic View Post
oh no now we are going to beat up compost???? WTF lets try and stay civil and let science and not some mindless notion guide us....

In almost every situation there is a need for compost, but the type of compost and the amount can be greatly debated and mused over, that said lets play nice for a second
So.....who's "beating up" compost, Grohorganic?

We simply lay out a reasonable package of options for folks to choose from, including the use of topdressings.
And despite whatever a certain California socialist-elitist might try to claim on this thread, nobody here "pushes" high protein grain programs over compost programs.
They are both equally represented & presented in our marketing & sales.

It so happens that the company we purchased so many years ago specialized in meals, and the word-of-mouth thing is still going strong to date.
Since 2004, our call-ins requesting quotes from adjacent properties have had a closing rate of nearly 80%, with nearly 2/3 of these customers ultimately requesting meals as (at least) part of their overall program.

But to be fair, since 2004, the topdressing segment of the business has grown about 30%, overall.
And like most everybody else, of course I've felt a hit late last year & this.
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  #114  
Old 06-15-2009, 01:37 PM
Marcos Marcos is offline
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Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
So lets get down to it Marcos. Do you manage soil or do you maintain turf because your "program" is essentially no different than your standard chem program which maintains turf.



Exactly. Your bottom line is profit margin, which I suspect is the only reason you push organics .... because it is more profitable for you to do so. It seems quite apparent to me you could care less for the reasons behind organic land management, and only care about what is easiest for you to do at the highest profit margin.
You can't read very well, can you, Kiril.
Let me put it in larger letters... so you can't miss it this time!

We don't CARE whether a prospect chooses meals or compost, any combination of the two, renovation work included or not, as long as they choose us to be THEIR VENDOR and their partners in maintaining / achieving what they want!!
What exactly is wrong with that, Kiril?!?


And maybe if some more folk in California genuinely cared enough about simple concepts like that, your state might not be in such the pathetic-@&& economic situation it's in right now!
National landmark for sale.....................anyone?............anyone?
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  #115  
Old 06-15-2009, 02:00 PM
Marcos Marcos is offline
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Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
That is what I can't understand here. Marcos claims to use compost at times, then comes after me for suggesting using compost.
What a distortion artist you are, Kiril!
That one puts you in the same class as Goebbels.

I've never "come after" anyone for using compost!
That's 100% absurd!

I've "come after" ...YOU...on this site, because YOU'VE incessantly barged onto multiple threads (such as the one we're on right now: "Organica 4 Step Lawn Care Program") and spit out your inane compost mantra time & time again.

You are nothing but a lame Lawnsite front for the international man-made global warming agenda hoax.
And you don't have the guts to admit anything to that fact!
'Cause if you did so now, you would be discredited in o-so many other ways on the organic forum!
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  #116  
Old 06-15-2009, 02:14 PM
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Grohorganic Grohorganic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ICT Bill View Post
What I have been taught and maybe it is wrong, is the only bad compost is putrified compost, compost that has gone anerobic

I looks like compost but has no value as a soil amendment, all of the nutrients have been stripped and it probably harbors pathogens

What is interesting is that there is a company out there selling putrified compost, they take food waste and have a process (that is patented) that putrifies the food waste in anaerobic conditions. The end product is sold as a fertilizer after adding Nitrogen to it, I believe it comes out of the process as a 0-0-0. I'm not saying the product has pathogens but I do wonder about its value as a soil amendment
bill there is some value for what we make from our methane digester and thats about as anaerobic as it gets, and the free N in it is out of this world. also some folks have a compost that starts off with a digester and then gets aerated after the fact and that is great stuff.....

all that maters is the organic matter........
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  #117  
Old 06-15-2009, 02:16 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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I see, more blah blah blah political rhetoric from Marcos. Guess I was right in not expecting you to actually answer the questions. Pretty typical of you and your posse to duck and run, spewing political garbage on your way out the door when you can't intelligently discuss an issue or defend your position.

How about this simple concept. Build the soil and site so it is relatively self sustaining, therefore needs less inputs (labor and materials). This leads to lower economic burden on the property owner, lessens impact on limited resources, and preserves environmental quality for future generations.

Is this too sensible of an idea for you to grasp Marcos? Clients can't get on board .... educate them. I would absolutely love to be a fly on the wall during one of your sales pitches.

How many people even know you can use feed grain as a fertilizer until you tell them? Even some of the most environmentally conscious people I have met don't know this, yet this is a widely known fact in OH?


So let us review.

What is the quickest and most effective way to build a relatively self-sustaining soil ..... COMPOST!

Have you presented a viable solution or even a logical argument that demonstrates the above is not true ........ NO!
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  #118  
Old 06-15-2009, 02:20 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grohorganic View Post
bill there is some value for what we make from our methane digester and thats about as anaerobic as it gets, and the free N in it is out of this world. also some folks have a compost that starts off with a digester and then gets aerated after the fact and that is great stuff.....

all that maters is the organic matter........
I would agree here. Even the best aerobic compost has the potential for anaerobic pockets. Just because something goes through an anaerobic stage does not mean it is worthless.
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  #119  
Old 06-15-2009, 05:34 PM
WannaBeOrganic WannaBeOrganic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Guess I was right in not expecting you to actually answer the questions.
Yeah, how about those questions about organica's products? You know, the original questions. How well did you answer those?

You guys obviously don't know anything about the Organica products so you just bicker over things you do (or think) you know.

That's a shame, I've been learning about Organica since last year and they seem to be one of the most innovative companies in this field. They have a number of PhD's working on technologies that use natural methods for agriculture, lawns and gardens, waste water treatment, bio-remediation, cleaning and ponds. University researchers have studied some of their products and found good results.

For the benefit of anyone that is unfortunate enough to stumble on this thread looking for info on Organic products, you won't find it here. Go to their website at www.organicatechnologies.com

They seem like a good company that's been doing this for 15 years. From their corporate information page:

Quote:
Organica Biotech has raised in excess of nine million dollars for the purpose of research and development and product commercialization. Today, there are three Ph.D.ís on our staff who continue to work to improve the quality of life without the use of chemicals. We hold 10 patents, 15 proprietary technologies, a number of OMRI certifications and a number of EPA registrations.
It's a real shame you "professionals" can't intelligently discuss the merits or failings to help answer the questions of another person in your field.
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  #120  
Old 06-15-2009, 08:35 PM
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phasthound phasthound is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WannaBeOrganic View Post
Yeah, how about those questions about organica's products? You know, the original questions. How well did you answer those?

You guys obviously don't know anything about the Organica products so you just bicker over things you do (or think) you know.

That's a shame, I've been learning about Organica since last year and they seem to be one of the most innovative companies in this field. They have a number of PhD's working on technologies that use natural methods for agriculture, lawns and gardens, waste water treatment, bio-remediation, cleaning and ponds. University researchers have studied some of their products and found good results.

For the benefit of anyone that is unfortunate enough to stumble on this thread looking for info on Organic products, you won't find it here. Go to their website at www.organicatechnologies.com

They seem like a good company that's been doing this for 15 years. From their corporate information page:



It's a real shame you "professionals" can't intelligently discuss the merits or failings to help answer the questions of another person in your field.
Excellent post!
Wouldn't it be great to have discussions without egos, finger pointing, and politics?? Gee, imagine we could share information and actually learn from one another.

So, tell us more about what you have learned about Organica's background and products. Have you been using them? If so, what results have you seen?

Those who have not used the products probably should not reply and start another thread to argue on.
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