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  #151  
Old 06-17-2009, 11:17 PM
Marcos Marcos is offline
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Originally Posted by WannaBeOrganic View Post
I reread the info for Organica Microbial Soil Conditioner and it states that it is Organica Plant Growth Activator Plus with calcium carbonate. PGA also contains seaweed extract so maybe you could use that instead of the MSC if you don't want to add lime and don't need calcium. They also have a product called Agroroots which is just derived from kelp and not in their consumer product group. PGA is water soluble so you can spray it and I think so is Agroroots. You can find other kelp products but they claim to have a patented process that makes the extraction from kelp better.

They don't just sell to consumers and I've seen some of their liquid products for sale in 55 gal drums. A 55 gal drum of Bio-Matrix is around $1,000 I think. Recommended rate for grass is 6-9 oz per 1,000 sq ft every 4 weeks so at 9oz it turns out to be around $1.25 per 1,000 sq ft. I getting some Bio-Matrix this week to try out because it seems like it has everything they make in it. Plus it's a liquid so I can spray everything with it, trees, shrubs, plants, vegetables while I'm spraying the lawn.

I also will be getting some K+ Neem which is a fungicide and pesticide product. I have an area with a bit of fungus but I've been treating it with corn meal and it's getting better so I might just keep the neem if I have a pest problem later on.

They have a lot of different products and distributors throughout the US so you might want to look into them.

Sorry to sound like a sales pitch... maybe the should be paying me. I'll send them a bill. What's a couple weeks of an active discussion on a popular site for lawn professionals worth? Maybe one million dollars or at least a tank full of sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads!

Truthfully, that's how some of the best salesmen launch new careers, WBO.
They innocently start pushing something they really believe in on the 'net, get noticed by someone key in the parent organization, get invited to lunch...

The Organica Plant Growth Activator is probably very similar to the hydroponic grade mycorr I get from Fungi Perfecti out of Washington state.
I'll put them on the list to call when I'm getting stocked up for seed season,
but the deal I get from Paul Stamets will be tough to beat.
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  #152  
Old 06-17-2009, 11:31 PM
Marcos Marcos is offline
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Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
$50 / 65 lb bag here. More than 30 bags will get you a 20% discount.
At an application rate of 2000 lbs/acre that comes to $1231 with 20% discount before shipping and tax.

On the other hand I can get high quality compost, manure amended, for $32/yard, which is relatively high for compost.
Kiril....be honest now.
Put your emotions aside for one moment...

If you locally could get CGM for around $15 / 50# bag, and corn, soybean, cotton seed, and alfalfa meal for a price range in between $9-$11/ 50# bag, you'd be all over it like a duck on a June bug.

Say.... "yes".
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  #153  
Old 06-18-2009, 12:07 AM
Marcos Marcos is offline
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Originally Posted by WannaBeOrganic View Post
1/2" of compost is still 2 applications a year.

To get a quarter inch topdressing I would have to pay almost $50 yard delivered ($60-70 if I make multiple trips to get bags) and have to spread almost 1,500 lbs of material per 1,000 sq ft manually. As a fertilizer, I don't believe 1/4" will give me the results I want for the whole year. So double that if you think 2 applications will be enough. Most lawns in my area aren't big and getting enough compost delivered to topdress an area doesn't meet the minimum for delivery and there are surcharges. I could maybe get it down to $40 per yard but there were some complaints from that facility. Nothing I can do without spending a lot more money to make it not eat up most of the day.

Applying organic meal based fertilizers 3 times a year to get about 3.5 lbs of N per 1k costs me around $37 per 1,000 sq ft for the whole year. I only have 35lbs of material to spread per 1k that I can do with a push spreader. I don't need to arrange delivery, take a day off to accept delivery and spend all that time moving a half ton of material per 1k sq ft. It's also something that can just sit in the garage taking up little space until I'm ready to use it.

Even if they had the exact same results, which one do you think most people would be more inclined to choose? If my soil test next year indicates I still need more OM I'll probably topdress and cut back on the fertilizers.
The biggest selling point for meal-based programs vs. compost-based programs thru the years has been the fact that we schedule more visits to the customer's lawn through the entire course of the growing season.
The more visits, the more opportunity for both us and the customer to communicate with each other about problems, and the more chance to confront these problems before they're out-of-hand.

Most consumers don't like to be serviced with just ONE big bunch of bananas, only to be left out on the island to starve for a time, especially while they can look across the water and see the family on the island next door happily getting regular shipments of bananas.

We've found out the hard way thru the years that this is exactly the feeling that some of the 'compost only' customers go through.
They get medium term results from the topdressing, but often don't know where to go from there unless they are led by the hand, to a certain extent.

And as the business has evolved even further over time, more & more folk are selecting 2 meal apps in the spring and a topdressing in the late summer / early fall that (hopefully) can be loosely coordinated with useful stuff like renovation / aeration / endomycorr sprays, when & where they are applicable.
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  #154  
Old 06-18-2009, 01:01 AM
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Rayholio Rayholio is offline
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Well.. Kiril didn't start this one.. but again.. I find a thread with as many posts as this.. There's just about got to be an argument with Kiril going on inside.. LOL
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  #155  
Old 06-18-2009, 09:33 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcos View Post
Kiril....be honest now.
Put your emotions aside for one moment...

If you locally could get CGM for around $15 / 50# bag, and corn, soybean, cotton seed, and alfalfa meal for a price range in between $9-$11/ 50# bag, you'd be all over it like a duck on a June bug.

Say.... "yes".
No Marcos, I would not. This is what I mean by sucking it up and spread some compost. Is it as easy as feed grain in a drop spreader .... NO. Will it move the system towards self-sustainability FAR quicker and cheaper .... YES.

The goal of an organic program is building and maintaining SOM so the system can function with little or no inputs. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either pushing a product or program so they can make a quick buck, or paying homage to the latest "fad", or are just plain ignorant.

When are you going to understand this isn't about emotions, politics, agendas, or any of the other stupid things you and others accuse me of. Politics and agendas are for children and I have ZERO interest in them.

Now what it IS about is providing the best value to both the client and the environment. If you don't care about the environment, then what the hell are you doing selling "organics"?

I build systems and provide solutions. I emphasize using compost .... why? Because it WORKS and is by far the most sustainable source of "fertility" available. I don't sell programs, products, agendas, blah blah blah.

@WBO

Why do you continue with uninformed hollow arguments? Clearly you need to do some more learning. Let me help you with 1 word ........... nature.

BTW, when I step onto the soap box, there will be NO mistaking it. Just ask mudpup.
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  #156  
Old 06-18-2009, 10:36 AM
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Grohorganic Grohorganic is offline
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Ok so let me jump in here,

so instead of take a land fill bound product "trash" and divert it to lawns with the idea of stopping methogenisis and storing C the instead we should spend cash and lots of fossil based C in the manufacture of " products" just so that we can sell a "green" idea instead of really doing the correct thing and really having a sustainable land care program.

OMG WTF is this that hard to get???

and yes I have no power connection at the farm my home is 100% recycled and I am at present burning almost no fossil fuels at all, all recycled materials at the farm and the only "inputs" that get used are some poly resin and fiberglass, along with a blower or 3 that get used to make my ct brewers. after that its all C negative, along with the fact that I have made almost 7 tons of bio-char in the last months...

try that and get back to me
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  #157  
Old 06-18-2009, 10:44 AM
Marcos Marcos is offline
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Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
No Marcos, I would not. This is what I mean by sucking it up and spread some compost. Is it as easy as feed grain in a drop spreader .... NO. Will it move the system towards self-sustainability FAR quicker and cheaper .... YES.

The goal of an organic program is building and maintaining SOM so the system can function with little or no inputs. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either pushing a product or program so they can make a quick buck, or paying homage to the latest "fad", or are just plain ignorant.

When are you going to understand this isn't about emotions, politics, agendas, or any of the other stupid things you and others accuse me of. Politics and agendas are for children and I have ZERO interest in them.

Now what it IS about is providing the best value to both the client and the environment. If you don't care about the environment, then what the hell are you doing selling "organics"?

I build systems and provide solutions. I emphasize using compost .... why? Because it WORKS and is by far the most sustainable source of "fertility" available. I don't sell programs, products, agendas, blah blah blah.

@WBO

Why do you continue with uninformed hollow arguments? Clearly you need to do some more learning. Let me help you with 1 word ........... nature.

BTW, when I step onto the soap box, there will be NO mistaking it. Just ask mudpup.
Bravo! Bravo!
Excellant, Kiril!

From now on, I'll expect nothing less than the following from Kiril the California compost nazi:

YOU MUST USE COMPOST TO FEED YOUR TURF!!
NOTHING ELSE!!

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  #158  
Old 06-18-2009, 10:50 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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And as usual, you continue to ignore what I have said MANY times in your one man crusade of childlike lameness.
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  #159  
Old 06-18-2009, 12:57 PM
WannaBeOrganic WannaBeOrganic is offline
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Am I the only one that finds the whole issue of what's more sustainable way to fertilize lawns as moronic as asking what's the most legal way to hire a hitman?

Unless you have a bunch of grazing animals most grass is ornamental. The other benefits of grass could be achieved using other ground covers that don't require any inputs, not even water other than what comes from the sky.

In my area we get plenty of rain and irrigation systems are pretty rare and only come on during the summer, sometimes never at all. Most people that do water either hand water or occasionally throw out a hose end sprinkler.I can't imagine growing a lawn somewhere that experienced regular droughts and needed frequent irrigation.

We have the ability to farm more grains. People aren't going to starve because of it. A few years ago I got a lesson about how some people are paid not to grow anything on their land when I was visiting someone's "farm". I asked them what they grew on the farm they said nothing. I asked what made it a "farm" the reply was basically you don't get subsidies for vacation houses. Makes me wonder what's going on with all these "ranches" some celebrities seem to have.
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  #160  
Old 06-18-2009, 01:21 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WannaBeOrganic View Post
Am I the only one that finds the whole issue of what's more sustainable way to fertilize lawns as moronic as asking what's the most legal way to hire a hitman?
Well, if you find it moronic then I guess you fall into the "paying homage to the latest fad" category.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WannaBeOrganic View Post
The other benefits of grass could be achieved using other ground covers that don't require any inputs, not even water other than what comes from the sky.
BINGO! Now you are using your head.
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