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  #61  
Old 06-06-2009, 11:50 AM
dishboy dishboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Here you go.





The above lawn gets ~ 1/4 per year as a top dressing in the fall when over seeded. This pic was taken last year (in August I believe), compost was applied the previous fall, the only other thing it received the entire year was some some left over alfalfa pellets (May or April) a friend unloaded on me (about 18 lbs or so over 2000 sqft). This is the only property I actually still maintain due to my relationship with them. This lawn has gotten yearly compost at the above rate for about 10-13 years with almost no fertilizer inputs. When ferts have been used in the past, they were applied at the time of over seeding in the fall or in the spring to get rid of partial bags of ferts they had laying around.



Given I don't know what I have to start with, and don't know what type of soil I am dealing with, or to what depth you want to raise the SOM in, or what type of compost we are talking about, or how you want it applied (top dressed vs. incorporated), how could I possibly answer that question?

If you want an answer then get the necessary data (i.e. a soil test and compost test).



Once again, not enough information. Organic matter decomposition rates vary widely depending on climate, soil type, and water availability, plants, etc.... If you MUST have a rough estimate, in my area I recommend 1/8"-1/4" once a year for turf, applied as a seed topdressing in the fall. More applications may be needed if you are attempting to rebuild the soil or have limited SOM.



Provide the necessary data (i.e. a soil test) and you might get your answer.



Need I remind you who came after me? You must be talking about Marcos because I didn't start squat here. I stand by my statement. If you want to rebuild a soil in a relatively quick fashion, then you should be using compost .... end of story. You can make all the arguments you want, but it will always come down to that plain and simple fact. Forget about sustainability, lets talk economics. Go ahead and price out what it would cost you to spread 1/4" of any bagged organic material or bulk feed grain over 1000 sqft and then come back here and let us know which is cheaper.



Once again, you go and make incorrect assumptions about me ... you fit right in with some of the regs here. I've been in the field for 16 years now and have done a little bit of everything from maint. to management. Much of my work over the years has focused on irrigation, and how to effectively manage both my water and soil resources in order to get the maximum naturally supplied benefits while minimizing inputs into the system (i.e. building sustainable systems). Consulting is a relatively new direction for me, which I have been transitioning to over the past 4 years or so.



There you go talking about Marcos again. FYI, fert and squirt is an accurate term, and one "they" use to describe themselves.



Research on what? Maximizing crop yield utilizing a particular management protocol, or perhaps managing sports turf? None of these directly apply to residential/commercial landscapes. Yes, studies done in these areas are extremely valuable, but one must understand the different goals of each. Both of the aforementioned systems are highly managed, far beyond ANY residential/commercial landscapes needs, and have drastically different end goals. You need to distinguish what can be usefully applied to landscapes and what needs to stay with Ag and sports turf.



Once again ....... WRONG. I will recommend bridge programs where appropriate and will also recommend herbicides when there are no other reasonable options. Is everything I recommend sustainable ......... NO! That however does not stop me from trying to build the most naturally sustainable system I can. I don't look for the easy way out nor do I use band aid approaches. I look for and build long term sustainable solutions to very real problems. I find it funny how you pretend to know so much about me, and yet be SO far off base. I think I have to agree with Natty here on where this is coming from.
Bulk pricing on my organic materials in a four application program with the final application being twice the rate comes in at $9.37 K and and about 10 minutes time per K on the season. How does Compost compare in your area for annual cost/ labor time per K.

I wish I could afford a ECO spreader and could do it your way but having to make a $7000.00 purchase and make a separate 40 mile round trip for every yard pushes overhead and final cost to the customer out what most are willing to pay. What do you charge to compost a 4K yard at 1/4" , maybe my perception of pricing is way off for this service.
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  #62  
Old 06-06-2009, 01:01 PM
WannaBeOrganic WannaBeOrganic is offline
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Kiril,

I appreciate your answers regarding compost. I found them helpful but you haven't shown that compost alone can fertilize a lawn. Maybe that's not the point you're trying to make, but it's the only way your arguments are relative in this discussion.

If you read the marketing materials for the Organica program, it's not touted as something that will significantly raise the organic material in your soil or improve your soil structure. It is aimed at people that are using synthetic fertilizers that want to use something safer. Organica doesn't claim that you don't need to add compost, even if they don't recommend you do. They are not anti-compost and would probably love it if you made your own compost and spread it on your lawn. Especially if you bought their Compost Accelerator product to make your compost. Never used it, not recommending it, don't know if it works or not or is even necessary.

My impression of the program is that it seems to make sense for it's intended purpose. Synthetically treated lawns are likely to be lacking the microorganisms that are necessary to to break down organic material and fertilizers in a way the lawn needs. By providing the microorganisms in their fertilizer and soil conditioner they help repopulate the soil. That seems to make sense to me.

Could you do the same with compost to build a microherd? Most likely. Is the average pick up a 15lb bag from home depot 4 times a year homeowner going to find that to be an easy change? Probably not.

Does the Organica program work? Is the application of microorganisms in this manner effective? I don't know and you don't know but on the surface it seems to make sense.

I see it as more of a bridge program but something you can continue to use to add extra fertilizer to your lawn. It only delivers about 1.6lbs of N per 1k^2 ft which might not be enough for some people that want a very dark green lawn that stops traffic or are used to the high N rates of synthetic fertilizer programs.

If I were Organica, I would recommend a treatment of their BioMatrix spray a couple of times a year in addition to the program as well as application of compost but that last part may turn off some consumers.

Like I said, it sounds great, but now on 7 pages and we haven't really discussed whether this could be a beneficial part of a good organic lawn care program or not. Just arguments about how compost is necessary to build good soil structure which you don't understand isn't what this program is about.

I think I'm done here. Feel free to assume I'm not who I said I was and that I'm a fert & squirt guy or even someone trying to hock Organica products if you like. I've said what I had to say and I stand by it.
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  #63  
Old 06-06-2009, 01:20 PM
WannaBeOrganic WannaBeOrganic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dishboy View Post
I wish I could afford a ECO spreader and could do it your way but having to make a $7000.00 purchase and make a separate 40 mile round trip for every yard pushes overhead and final cost to the customer out what most are willing to pay. What do you charge to compost a 4K yard at 1/4" , maybe my perception of pricing is way off for this service.
If you had enough clients that wanted it and you only did it once or twice a year, couldn't you just [url=http://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equipment/equipment.aspx?itemid=0700070&catid=s446]rent a topdresser[/quote] for a day or a week, depending how many clients, then have the right amount of compost delivered to each site?

Would have to coordinate well with the compost delivery and work around the weather. Would have to charge more than a regular application but if some of your customers are up for it and it does great things for their lawns, you might get more the next year.
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  #64  
Old 06-06-2009, 01:33 PM
NattyLawn NattyLawn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WannaBeOrganic View Post
Kiril,

I appreciate your answers regarding compost. I found them helpful but you haven't shown that compost alone can fertilize a lawn. Maybe that's not the point you're trying to make, but it's the only way your arguments are relative in this discussion.

If you read the marketing materials for the Organica program, it's not touted as something that will significantly raise the organic material in your soil or improve your soil structure. It is aimed at people that are using synthetic fertilizers that want to use something safer. Organica doesn't claim that you don't need to add compost, even if they don't recommend you do. They are not anti-compost and would probably love it if you made your own compost and spread it on your lawn. Especially if you bought their Compost Accelerator product to make your compost. Never used it, not recommending it, don't know if it works or not or is even necessary.

My impression of the program is that it seems to make sense for it's intended purpose. Synthetically treated lawns are likely to be lacking the microorganisms that are necessary to to break down organic material and fertilizers in a way the lawn needs. By providing the microorganisms in their fertilizer and soil conditioner they help repopulate the soil. That seems to make sense to me.

Could you do the same with compost to build a microherd? Most likely. Is the average pick up a 15lb bag from home depot 4 times a year homeowner going to find that to be an easy change? Probably not.

Does the Organica program work? Is the application of microorganisms in this manner effective? I don't know and you don't know but on the surface it seems to make sense.

I see it as more of a bridge program but something you can continue to use to add extra fertilizer to your lawn. It only delivers about 1.6lbs of N per 1k^2 ft which might not be enough for some people that want a very dark green lawn that stops traffic or are used to the high N rates of synthetic fertilizer programs.

If I were Organica, I would recommend a treatment of their BioMatrix spray a couple of times a year in addition to the program as well as application of compost but that last part may turn off some consumers.

Like I said, it sounds great, but now on 7 pages and we haven't really discussed whether this could be a beneficial part of a good organic lawn care program or not. Just arguments about how compost is necessary to build good soil structure which you don't understand isn't what this program is about.

I think I'm done here. Feel free to assume I'm not who I said I was and that I'm a fert & squirt guy or even someone trying to hock Organica products if you like. I've said what I had to say and I stand by it.
Making recommendations on products you have never used, or don't know how they're used is a big mis-step in my opinion. But, you, a homeowner stand by that? Thanks for the recommendation, now please head on back to the homeowner forum! So you're going to take a Scott's 4 step customer that gets a bunch of soluble N and then give them 2 apps of SLOW release corn gluten and 2 apps of soil conditioner? Hmmm...Good luck!

No one accused you of hocking Organica products, but that might be more accurate where you're coming from....

I think you're done here as well.
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  #65  
Old 06-06-2009, 01:38 PM
NattyLawn NattyLawn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dishboy View Post
Bulk pricing on my organic materials in a four application program with the final application being twice the rate comes in at $9.37 K and and about 10 minutes time per K on the season. How does Compost compare in your area for annual cost/ labor time per K.

I wish I could afford a ECO spreader and could do it your way but having to make a $7000.00 purchase and make a separate 40 mile round trip for every yard pushes overhead and final cost to the customer out what most are willing to pay. What do you charge to compost a 4K yard at 1/4" , maybe my perception of pricing is way off for this service.
Did they raise the price on the Eco-Lawn? I thought it was $5500? People complain about prices of the spreaders, but no one seems willing to do any work anymore. 2 guys with one filling a wheelbarrow and one spreading should be able to do a decent sized (5-10k) lawn in an hour or so..So add the cost of the compost, fuel and labor and tack on profit margin. Does everyone have the same program from your company? If so, maybe that's something you need to change.....
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  #66  
Old 06-06-2009, 04:30 PM
WannaBeOrganic WannaBeOrganic is offline
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Quote:
Making recommendations on products you have never used, or don't know how they're used is a big mis-step in my opinion.
I agree. That's why I never recommended it other than to say it sounds like a good idea and was hoping to find people that have more experience with the product or understanding of how it might or might not work.

Quote:
now please head on back to the homeowner forum
The homeowner forum here is worthless. This one doesn't seem to be as helpful either.
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  #67  
Old 06-06-2009, 05:05 PM
dishboy dishboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NattyLawn View Post
Did they raise the price on the Eco-Lawn? I thought it was $5500? People complain about prices of the spreaders, but no one seems willing to do any work anymore. 2 guys with one filling a wheelbarrow and one spreading should be able to do a decent sized (5-10k) lawn in an hour or so..So add the cost of the compost, fuel and labor and tack on profit margin. Does everyone have the same program from your company? If so, maybe that's something you need to change.....
I am not interested in hiring or in grunt labor . I have been doing this for 30years and breaking your body is stupid when better ways are available. You think two guys can unload spread evenly 5 to 10 yards of compost in a hour or so. Have you actually done this? I call BS on that.
Short of buying a spreader, which is insane for my forty mowing /fert accounts JD seems to have the best method to introduce compost/ biology into the landscape and then build SOM by cycling fert/leaves/clippings.
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  #68  
Old 06-06-2009, 07:49 PM
NattyLawn NattyLawn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dishboy View Post
I am not interested in hiring or in grunt labor . I have been doing this for 30years and breaking your body is stupid when better ways are available. You think two guys can unload spread evenly 5 to 10 yards of compost in a hour or so. Have you actually done this? I call BS on that.
Short of buying a spreader, which is insane for my forty mowing /fert accounts JD seems to have the best method to introduce compost/ biology into the landscape and then build SOM by cycling fert/leaves/clippings.
Who said you're applying 1 yard per k? Sorry Dishboy, I forgot you need everything spelled out for you. How was I to know you only have 40 accounts making the Eco-lawn not a good choice for you? You're the one who mentioned it then cut it down....A lot of people on here are looking for answers, then the get some comments, then cut down the people trying to help by adding more questions based on facts that were never mentioned. Then the same whiners wonder why no one helps on here anymore.

I said it before JD has a great idea doing what he does. Customizable compost applications. If you have the time/space it should work well.
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  #69  
Old 06-06-2009, 08:01 PM
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phasthound phasthound is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dishboy View Post
I am not interested in hiring or in grunt labor . I have been doing this for 30years and breaking your body is stupid when better ways are available. You think two guys can unload spread evenly 5 to 10 yards of compost in a hour or so. Have you actually done this? I call BS on that.
Short of buying a spreader, which is insane for my forty mowing /fert accounts JD seems to have the best method to introduce compost/ biology into the landscape and then build SOM by cycling fert/leaves/clippings.
30 years, 40 clients? This must be a hobby for you.
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  #70  
Old 06-07-2009, 07:40 AM
growingdeeprootsorganicly growingdeeprootsorganicly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WannaBeOrganic View Post
The homeowner forum here is worthless. This one doesn't seem to be as helpful either.

most of the people in this forum do this professionally for a living. none have said they use the bagged product you mention, whats that tell you??? but people have been giving you the best advice possible but you won't take it, so in the end whats that tell you???

im not sure what ur true intent is after all ur posts? but if u r a plain joe home owner whats ur deal? what do you expect? would you like for all of us to come over and do the work for you for free? would that answer finally be acceptable to you?
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