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  #21  
Old 06-20-2009, 04:21 PM
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Rayholio Rayholio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by growingdeeprootsorganicly View Post
kiril, aren't you giving advice to same person who was bashing you and seemed to "know it all"? a month or so ago in the chem forum? why bother? their intent is only about making a buck, and will not change how or what they do? not saying people can't change but the feeling i get from some of these guys is it's just about gaining market share. i say to them.....do you own research
I'm here to humbly learn about something I know little about. We're just having a friendly civil conversation here, bro.. No one has made any assumptions, or accusations until you popped in here.. and I just assume keep it that way so we can remain productive..

And yes.. I want to make a profit.. that would make me happy.. And if I can do it with even 10% more organic means, I would be using less synethetic products.. That would presumably make you happy..

How is this not a win - win?
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  #22  
Old 06-20-2009, 04:24 PM
growingdeeprootsorganicly growingdeeprootsorganicly is offline
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Originally Posted by Rayholio View Post
and I just assume keep it that way so we can remain productive..
we or YOU?....bro
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  #23  
Old 06-20-2009, 04:39 PM
WannaBeOrganic WannaBeOrganic is offline
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Oh wait. So I had you organic guys all wrong? You're not looking to make a profit? These organic lawn care companies in my area are more expensive than the synthetics. I obviously haven't looked hard enough.

If you operate at cost, let me know what part of NJ you service and what you provide and some idea on pricing. Hell, I'll pay cost + beer and pizza.
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  #24  
Old 06-20-2009, 04:52 PM
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Rayholio Rayholio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by growingdeeprootsorganicly View Post
we or YOU?....bro
Do0d.. did I step on your cat or something??



Anyhow..

Kiril.. I'm looking thru some of my recent soil tests.. and I just picked one to look at randomly.. I know (especially because I had an employee pull the sample) that there is going to be some varrience between the two years samples.. 2007 was processed in july, and 2008 was processed in september.. that might effect them too..

2007 custmer #337

organic matter of 8.3%
pHs 6.3
P 245
K 241
Ca 4477
Mg 179
Neutr. Acidity 1.0 meq
CEC 13.2 meq

2008

Organic Matter 5.2 %
pHs 6.9
P 84
K 393
Ca 4727
Mg 216
Neutr Acidity 0.0 meq
CEC 13.2 meq

Both years the lab recommended 1lb of nitrogen only.

This is an irrigated fescue crop in a mostly shady lawn.. I frankly never have had any serious problems with this lawn.. I just pulled the soil test at random..

But looking thru my other soil tests.. I have some with organic matter around 1.5% and some as high as 9% with most probably around 3%.. I'm not sure where the 'line' should be to recommend compost.. What is adaquate OM? Some of my lowest OM lawns are actually looking real good.. but they water the hell outta them..

Any thoughts?

BTW I'm reading your links now.. thanks for your help.
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  #25  
Old 06-20-2009, 05:35 PM
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Rayholio Rayholio is offline
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Kiril,

I have an issue with one of the links you sent me..

http://www.presidio.gov/NR/rdonlyres...rfTrial.pdf%20

The control is golf course turf that they stopped all treatments on.. the experimental area stopped treatments, but replaced them with CT

So I think that they either should have had a third area with their regular maintenace schedule, or the control should have had their old maintenance schedule..

I don't understand how they could draw many conclusions with this study.. (and they didn't.. other than root growth)

anyhow.. thought I'm mention it, in case you know something about this study that I don't...
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  #26  
Old 06-21-2009, 12:04 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayholio View Post
Kiril,

I have an issue with one of the links you sent me..

http://www.presidio.gov/NR/rdonlyres...rfTrial.pdf%20

The control is golf course turf that they stopped all treatments on.. the experimental area stopped treatments, but replaced them with CT

So I think that they either should have had a third area with their regular maintenace schedule, or the control should have had their old maintenance schedule..

I don't understand how they could draw many conclusions with this study.. (and they didn't.. other than root growth)

anyhow.. thought I'm mention it, in case you know something about this study that I don't...
I included that because it is probably the best known "publication" on turf and CT.

That said, there is a good reason why it never got published in a peer reviewed journal.
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  #27  
Old 06-21-2009, 12:19 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayholio View Post
Kiril.. I'm looking thru some of my recent soil tests.. and I just picked one to look at randomly.. I know (especially because I had an employee pull the sample) that there is going to be some varrience between the two years samples.. 2007 was processed in july, and 2008 was processed in september.. that might effect them too..

2007 custmer #337

organic matter of 8.3%
pHs 6.3
P 245
K 241
Ca 4477
Mg 179
Neutr. Acidity 1.0 meq
CEC 13.2 meq

2008

Organic Matter 5.2 %
pHs 6.9
P 84
K 393
Ca 4727
Mg 216
Neutr Acidity 0.0 meq
CEC 13.2 meq

Both years the lab recommended 1lb of nitrogen only.

This is an irrigated fescue crop in a mostly shady lawn.. I frankly never have had any serious problems with this lawn.. I just pulled the soil test at random..
Curious how exactly are you sampling. That is a pretty big difference for pH and OM% in a single year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayholio View Post
But looking thru my other soil tests.. I have some with organic matter around 1.5% and some as high as 9% with most probably around 3%.. I'm not sure where the 'line' should be to recommend compost.. What is adaquate OM?
The amount necessary to get the results you want.

There is no magic number. You may want a higher %OM in a sandy soil than a clay soil. Generally I look at the soil as a whole, not as what %OM do I need to meet the nutrient requirements of the plants.

In essence, how much organic matter will it take to make this sites soil acceptable in terms of structure, water holding capacity, nutrient retention (CEC), gaseous exchange, etc...? Simply put, it varies from site to site.

Once I get the soil where I want it, then I will use that as a rough base line to maintain the soil at.

All that said I think most people here shoot for something around 5-10%, but as noted above, the percentage you really need will depend on the site.
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  #28  
Old 06-21-2009, 02:03 PM
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Rayholio Rayholio is offline
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I think the time of year made a big difference with all her trees dropping matter etc.. and we normally pull about 2 cups of dirt total randomly from all over the lawn at about 2-4 inches depth. and as I say.. I had an employee helping.. so it was probably done wrong

well, that does give me an idea.. and I'll do a little more research on it.. thanks
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  #29  
Old 06-21-2009, 02:14 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by Rayholio View Post
I think the time of year made a big difference with all her trees dropping matter etc.. and we normally pull about 2 cups of dirt total randomly from all over the lawn at about 2-4 inches depth. and as I say.. I had an employee helping.. so it was probably done wrong

well, that does give me an idea.. and I'll do a little more research on it.. thanks
Yes, sampling should be done at the same time of year. I put this "guide" of sorts together for soil sampling in a recent thread. Might be worth checking out.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showpost.php...22&postcount=3
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  #30  
Old 06-21-2009, 04:50 PM
WannaBeOrganic WannaBeOrganic is offline
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Rayholio,

I found a more recent pic of that guys lawn, the first one I posted was at least a couple of years old. This isn't a great pic but you can see the difference between his lawn and his neighbor's. Tell me you don't want to punch him for having such a dark lawn? I have serious turf envy issues.
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