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  #11  
Old 06-25-2009, 06:39 PM
WannaBeOrganic WannaBeOrganic is offline
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drug rep, maybe you are better at chemistry than me and can answer these questions.

I think the P on the bag really means phosphorus pentoxide. Saying N-P-K is a lot easier than saying N-P2O5-K2O.

Phosphorus pentoxide is a desiccant (drying agent) wouldn't high amounts cause other issues?

Too much P doesn't sound good.
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  #12  
Old 06-25-2009, 08:13 PM
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phasthound phasthound is online now
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Stop obsessing about P, add organic matter.
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  #13  
Old 06-26-2009, 10:16 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WannaBeOrganic View Post
I think the P on the bag really means phosphorus pentoxide. Saying N-P-K is a lot easier than saying N-P2O5-K2O.

Phosphorus pentoxide is a desiccant (drying agent) wouldn't high amounts cause other issues?
Yikes! This could be a full time job dispelling all the inaccurate information thrown out there by our new resident "expert" who claims to understand what he regurgitates.

The values of P and K are reported this way because historically it was how the mass fractions of P and K were determined/analyzed and reported. It has nothing to do with the actual composition of the fertilizer.
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  #14  
Old 06-26-2009, 10:39 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Originally Posted by JDUtah View Post
So what does this have to do with P in lawns. This is about solids in waste water moving with the waste water into the water table. It is already understood that if the solids they are attached to move, then we have movement of the P.

That is why I specifically asked for peoples' thoughts. With discussion there is the need for all parties involved to understand the question and the response. Throwing out a list of papers does not require a forum, only a google.

Will P - as a nutrient currently in the soil - leach out, disengage, break the molecular bond, of the soil? and if so how does that happen?
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
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  #15  
Old 06-26-2009, 11:00 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Will P - as a nutrient currently in the soil - leach out, disengage, break the molecular bond, of the soil? and if so how does that happen?
Ask yourself how P is taken up by plants and you will have answered your own question.
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  #16  
Old 06-27-2009, 09:50 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Ask yourself how P is taken up by plants and you will have answered your own question.
I remember the discussion about nutrients being freed up by microbes at the request of the plant. But that these microbes were everywhere and the question was - Would these microbes be releasing nutrients in the soil, where there were no plants growing?

Turns out the answer was - Very little activity without plants.

Anyways, a P molecule has to get into the sap stream to be transported throughout the plant. So a P molecule has to be stripped from whatever it is bound to and be water soluablized.
That is NOT done by rain water washing through the soil and leaching into the water table. As is the case with N.

So if a P molecule is wrestled off a Cation Exchange Site and becomes water soluable , but is not used by a plant right away -- How far can it possibly travel b4 getting bound to another CE site? Answer - Not very.

So here the answer of my own question is that P does not leach and it is doubtful that what is applied gets beyond the layer of thatch in most lawns.
Since nothing is out there to prove this concept to be wrong -- I will continue on as if it were true. So far as our science can tell - it is true.
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #17  
Old 06-27-2009, 10:40 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
I remember the discussion about nutrients being freed up by microbes at the request of the plant. But that these microbes were everywhere and the question was - Would these microbes be releasing nutrients in the soil, where there were no plants growing?

Turns out the answer was - Very little activity without plants.

Anyways, a P molecule has to get into the sap stream to be transported throughout the plant. So a P molecule has to be stripped from whatever it is bound to and be water soluablized.
That is NOT done by rain water washing through the soil and leaching into the water table. As is the case with N.

So if a P molecule is wrestled off a Cation Exchange Site and becomes water soluable , but is not used by a plant right away -- How far can it possibly travel b4 getting bound to another CE site? Answer - Not very.

So here the answer of my own question is that P does not leach and it is doubtful that what is applied gets beyond the layer of thatch in most lawns.
Since nothing is out there to prove this concept to be wrong -- I will continue on as if it were true. So far as our science can tell - it is true.
Axe, you didn't answer the question. What is the primary transport mechanism of P from the soil to the plant?

P can leach, in solution or by particulate matter moving through the profile. The amount of leaching that can occur is strongly soil dependent.

My list for you.

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/...ct_1103a11.htm

http://toxics.usgs.gov/highlights/ph...migration.html

http://soil.scijournals.org/cgi/reprint/64/3/1090.pdf

http://soil.scijournals.org/cgi/reprint/68/4/1429.pdf

http://jeq.scijournals.org/cgi/reprint/37/1/69.pdf

http://jeq.scijournals.org/cgi/reprint/34/1/370.pdf

http://jeq.scijournals.org/cgi/reprint/33/2/678.pdf
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  #18  
Old 06-27-2009, 04:24 PM
drugrep drugrep is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Yikes! This could be a full time job dispelling all the inaccurate information thrown out there by our new resident "expert" who claims to understand what he regurgitates.

The values of P and K are reported this way because historically it was how the mass fractions of P and K were determined/analyzed and reported. It has nothing to do with the actual composition of the fertilizer.
Kiril, If you are referring to me, I do apologize if I've ever come off that way. I barely understand this stuff which is why I am here getting opinions. I've got a lot of great information from you, smallaxe, and WBO and am trying to assimilate and balance it to meet the goals I want to meet and good technique.

I do want to get my numbers right which is why I will continue to use synthetic for now, but I strongly believe in organic matter which is why I began mulching this year and adding protein. Trying to get best of both worlds until I can make full switch to organic.

2 labs told me to use balanced fertilizer year round. Like 12-12-12, but I don't want the K, so I decided to use Starter. You guys have me thinking about trying to do it too rapidly, so I will probably just use starter May 1st and Sept 1 and then use things like Soybean meal rest of time.

I value and appreciate all of your input. I may not listen to all of it even if I know you're right. I do understand some Chemistry, but am no expert. 1 Semester of General and 1 Semester of Organic.

Last edited by drugrep; 06-27-2009 at 04:33 PM.
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  #19  
Old 06-27-2009, 04:57 PM
drugrep drugrep is offline
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I will say 1 thing though with conviction. Befvore I say it, let me say that I do strongly believe in feeding and nurturing microbes and doing things like grasscycling to increase organic matter. So here it is, I do think the strict organic group have overblown the effects of synthetic fertilizer. Some people need it and using it plus organic techniques is perfectly acceptable. That point I will argue until we're both blue in the face.
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  #20  
Old 06-27-2009, 05:18 PM
growingdeeprootsorganicly growingdeeprootsorganicly is offline
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once phosphorus is ionized to a water soluble phosphate salt it has water leaching capability, the earths natural phosphorus cycle depends on it for life as we know it to exist.
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