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  #21  
Old 06-28-2009, 10:16 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by drugrep View Post
Kiril, If you are referring to me, I do apologize if I've ever come off that way.
No I wasn't. That honor goes to WBO.

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Originally Posted by drugrep View Post
You guys have me thinking about trying to do it too rapidly, so I will probably just use starter May 1st and Sept 1 and then use things like Soybean meal rest of time.
The first and most important lesson to learn with organics is patience. We strive to achieve a natural balance between plant and soil and "overnight" results are neither expected or desirable.
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  #22  
Old 06-28-2009, 11:00 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Axe, you didn't answer the question. What is the primary transport mechanism of P from the soil to the plant?

P can leach, in solution or by particulate matter moving through the profile. The amount of leaching that can occur is strongly soil dependent.

http://soil.scijournals.org/cgi/reprint/64/3/1090.pdf
I read through this one...

It would appear that they measured some leaching through the soil after applying P. I didn't get a lot about how much of their applied amount ended up going through.

My question of this particular method of experimenting is - How much P leaches out of a soil that does not have fresh applications?

Evidently the Starter fert apps. can and will lose some of the P. - but - will soils lose P that has been there at least one season?
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
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  #23  
Old 06-28-2009, 01:28 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Evidently the Starter fert apps. can and will lose some of the P. - but - will soils lose P that has been there at least one season?
I don't believe there is a definitive yes/no answer to this ..... too many variables.
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  #24  
Old 06-28-2009, 04:37 PM
Grandview Grandview is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
Will P - as a nutrient currently in the soil - leach out, disengage, break the molecular bond, of the soil? and if so how does that happen?
The answer is no. P will only move unless soil moves. It does not leach into groundwater like N can. It is rather insoluble and does bond with Fe and Ca. A couple articles in the "Green Side UP" supports my statement. So the ban on P in lawn fertilizer will not improve water quality. So add more P without guilt.
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  #25  
Old 06-28-2009, 06:02 PM
growingdeeprootsorganicly growingdeeprootsorganicly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandview View Post
The answer is no. P will only move unless soil moves. It does not leach into groundwater like N can. It is rather insoluble and does bond with Fe and Ca. A couple articles in the "Green Side UP" supports my statement. So the ban on P in lawn fertilizer will not improve water quality. So add more P without guilt.
we can agree to disagree, though most phosphates leach less compared to nitrogen ion's, there are some phosphate's such as ammonium phosphate that are highy soluble in water.

here's a picture from wiki, the phosphorus cycle. notice the part that says
water column? plants need P in a soluble formName:  phos cycle.jpg
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  #26  
Old 06-28-2009, 08:15 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by Grandview View Post
The answer is no. P will only move unless soil moves. It does not leach into groundwater like N can. It is rather insoluble and does bond with Fe and Ca. A couple articles in the "Green Side UP" supports my statement. So the ban on P in lawn fertilizer will not improve water quality. So add more P without guilt.
It might be a good idea to review the linked literature before making a post like this.
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  #27  
Old 06-29-2009, 08:31 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandview View Post
The answer is no. P will only move unless soil moves. It does not leach into groundwater like N can. It is rather insoluble and does bond with Fe and Ca. A couple articles in the "Green Side UP" supports my statement. So the ban on P in lawn fertilizer will not improve water quality. So add more P without guilt.
This is exactly what I discovered during my Stinky Lake Syndrome research a couple of years ago. The gov't however has the agenda of outlawing P in lawn ferts, right here in Wisco. But will not acknowledge the dead leaves and muck contibute to the problem every fall, and the DNR intimidates anyone who would clean up the shoreline.

The link that I read indicates the P does move through the soil and they are collecting the leachate at the bottom of their samples. Done in England.

This experiment they added P, then let the rain wash it through. I would like them to skip a year of adding P and continue collecting the drainage water. That would give us a more complete picture.

Perhaps the truth is out there. I found that the Asian world had some of the best, thought through experiments, of all the abstracts I read.
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*
Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #28  
Old 06-29-2009, 08:58 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
I would like them to skip a year of adding P and continue collecting the drainage water. That would give us a more complete picture.
Read the last link. The control (treatment A) had no applied P but showed the highest leached P in the loam and clay soils.
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  #29  
Old 06-29-2009, 09:01 AM
growingdeeprootsorganicly growingdeeprootsorganicly is offline
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after reading the links kiril posted this morning i thought was interesting was how organic P sources can leach just as much as some of the inorganic phosphates? and how much the soil's chemical,pH, biology presents, physical make up and how much water the site receives effects P leaching, it's a soil specific issue but P leaching does occur. inorganic and organic P contribute both to the problem. i thought was interesting too was if a soil is already saturated with P? and or the soil doesn't absorb P easily? that surface run off is a major problem.
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  #30  
Old 06-29-2009, 09:35 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
Read the last link. The control (treatment A) had no applied P but showed the highest leached P in the loam and clay soils.
Thanks, I will do that.
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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