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  #11  
Old 07-18-2009, 11:13 AM
growingdeeprootsorganicly growingdeeprootsorganicly is offline
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riggle is right on, it's a rye. over seed with quality seed, keep lawn properly cut/watered

and in the fall 1/2 inch topdress don't double 1/4 inch it so to speak.

add some sul-po-mag and or calcitic lime/gypsum perhaps too?

a pic of the yard and a large soil core might get you more answers?
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  #12  
Old 07-18-2009, 03:32 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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That CEC is anything but high. You do need to increase OM% and your pH is right on the edge of acceptable. Probably wouldn't hurt to put down some lime. Stay away from the P for 2-3 years at least.
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  #13  
Old 07-18-2009, 07:32 PM
roccon31 roccon31 is offline
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thaks everyone. the grass looked like rye to me also, but i couldnt nail it down. we are definately doing some better seed in the fall along with the topdressings. they want a dark green "soccer field" type of look, so im thinkin im going to try some athletic field (80 tttf/20 PR) seed this time or a straight tri-tall fescue blend.

this lawn has had a lime app since the soil test, so that should be a little better. will get more lime at topdressing time.

kiril- i thought a good cec was 12-15? at least that is whats in my nofa notes.....not that it is high, but MUCH higher than i expected.

by the way, this soil is very hard red clay, typical of this area. was thinking of adding 25% sand to the topdressing mix, for sh^*s and giggles. maybe it will help the drainage of the soil?
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  #14  
Old 07-19-2009, 03:00 PM
growingdeeprootsorganicly growingdeeprootsorganicly is offline
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roc, kiril posted some good links on CEC recently, talks in detail about different clays and their CEC. some clays have good CEC some not so much, research your area'a soil type's to get a better idea what ur working with and what works best to fix issues.

for ur renovation skip the sand i would suggest, depending on ur compost source you will have some sand anyway, you need OM!!
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  #15  
Old 07-20-2009, 08:16 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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For best results and quickest adaptation mix in the sand with the compost rather than w/out the compost. After a good core aeration, of course.
Remember CEC is in the clay as well as the OM so it may read high in the lab. But on a compacted clay field - I wouldn't bet on it.
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #16  
Old 07-24-2009, 06:46 PM
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muddstopper muddstopper is offline
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One thing that everybody overlooked is the actual soil test results. At least none of the recommendations they shared had anything to do with the soil test report.
Test results show you need 63lb of caco3 but it didnít say what the best form would be to use. Considering your Ca saturation of 38% and Mg sat of 12%, one would think that calcitic lime would be the best choice for your CaCo3. Not so. In your case, dolomite would be the better choice. The simple addition of calcitic lime will lower your already adequate Mg saturation levels, therefore the use of a lime that contains both Ca and Mg will raise Ca levels while maintaining your Mg levels. This then poses another problem, raising your Ca-Mg saturation levels will also lower your K saturation levels, which are also already low, hence the soil test recommendation of 2.9lbs perMsqft. Another non factor was also pointed out as a possible problem, your 164ppm of P. While this might be considered somewhat high, whenever you apply the dolomitic lime you will see a tieup of P in the soil because of the cation/anion attraction. At most the only problems you might encounter because of the high P is tieup of some of the micronutrients such as Zinc and Copper, which wasnít tested for on your soiltest report. I also disagree with someones statement about the tons of Al in your soil, there is no evidence posted that would suggest that you have high or low Al, this is just an assumption on someones part.

Your suggestion of a double aeration and application of a good quality compost, along with the overseeding and lime application, will go a long way to improving this lawn. Your concerns about high CEC and low OM content is nothing to worry about. CEC is the ability of the soil to exchange nutrients, 12 is good. While organic matter will effect CEC, Om is not the only factor to influence CEC . While problems usually donít start until OM levels get over 7%, Soils with to high a OM content usually arenot anymore fertile than a low OM content soil and can actually hold on to nutrients instead of letting them become available to the plants.
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  #17  
Old 07-24-2009, 10:08 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muddstopper View Post
Test results show you need 63lb of caco3 but it didnít say what the best form would be to use.
That is a recommendation Mudd, not a test result. Furthermore Ca & Mg are nearly identical with respect to preference on the exchanger. To state that Mg will go down because Ca is going up is one mega leap, especially considering the potential relative percentages of each (i.e. chemical makeup of dolomite).

Quote:
Originally Posted by muddstopper View Post
This then poses another problem, raising your Ca-Mg saturation levels will also lower your K saturation levels
This is definitely possible, yet does not mean it will leach out of the effective root zone, only that it may be displaced deeper into the profile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muddstopper View Post
Another non factor was also pointed out as a possible problem, your 164ppm of P. While this might be considered somewhat high, whenever you apply the dolomitic lime you will see a tieup of P in the soil because of the cation/anion attraction.
Given the pH, this is not likely to happen. Even if it does, it becomes part of the active or labile P pool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muddstopper View Post
At most the only problems you might encounter because of the high P is tieup of some of the micronutrients such as Zinc and Copper, which wasnít tested for on your soiltest report.
Once again, given the pH is this even worth considering? Now if the pH was around 7.00 or above, then I might be concerned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muddstopper View Post
I also disagree with someones statement about the tons of Al in your soil, there is no evidence posted that would suggest that you have high or low Al, this is just an assumption on someones part.
Wondered the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muddstopper View Post
While problems usually donít start until OM levels get over 7%, Soils with to high a OM content usually are not anymore fertile than a low OM content soil and can actually hold on to nutrients instead of letting them become available to the plants.
Whoa, back the truck up buddy.

First, the measure of a soils fertility is more than just CEC.

Second, please explain your thinking with specific examples of a limiting SOM% (with a mineral soil type) and a related drop in "fertility" and/or drop in plant available nutrients, and at what pH this might occur at.
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  #18  
Old 07-25-2009, 10:34 AM
growingdeeprootsorganicly growingdeeprootsorganicly is offline
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mudd, i disagree
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  #19  
Old 07-25-2009, 11:25 AM
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muddstopper muddstopper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muddstopper
Test results show you need 63lb of caco3 but it didnít say what the best form would be to use.

That is a recommendation Mudd, not a test result. Furthermore Ca & Mg are nearly identical with respect to preference on the exchanger. To state that Mg will go down because Ca is going up is one mega leap, especially considering the potential relative percentages of each (i.e. chemical makeup of dolomite).


Quote:
Originally Posted by muddstopper
This then poses another problem, raising your Ca-Mg saturation levels will also lower your K saturation levels

This is definitely possible, yet does not mean it will leach out of the effective root zone, only that it may be displaced deeper into the profile.

I will answer both of the above statements. Saturation levels cannot exceed 100%. Anytime you add other cations, their addition will influence the saturation levels of the exsisting cations. The net result is a raising of the saturation levels of the added cation and a lowering of saturation levels of the exsisting cations. This doesnot mean the effected cations where leached from the soil or actual found amounts have demished, only that they will have less influence because of the increase saturation levels of the added cation, in this case calcium in the form of CaCo3 While ca will have an almost lb for lb effect on mg, their effect on K is almost double or 2:1. While it is also true that the dolomitic lime will contain both ca and mg, these amounts will not be 50/50, usually 22%ca and anywhere from 6% to 16% mg, according to the source,or at least thats how the bags are labeled where I buy it. Using dolomite in this situation will help maintain current mg saturation levels while building the ca levels, altho at some point another soil test should be taken to determine if mg levels are being maintained, lowered, or raised, at which point another material might need to be used other than dolomite. Adding K only will also effect ca and mg saturation levels, therefore applying the K as well as the dolomite will help increase the fertility of the soil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muddstopper
Another non factor was also pointed out as a possible problem, your 164ppm of P. While this might be considered somewhat high, whenever you apply the dolomitic lime you will see a tieup of P in the soil because of the cation/anion attraction.

Given the pH, this is not likely to happen. Even if it does, it becomes part of the active or labile P pool.

Whenever you have free P in solution, it is going to seek out other free cations to form an attachment. The additon of lime at the same time as an application of P is usually not recommended for that very reason, the lime and P will attach and form tricalcium Phosphates. In a soil that is already low in calcium and high in P will have almost immediant Ca to P attachment simply because of the additional free C that is applied to the soil. This doesnt take years to happen, it can happen is as little as 4 weeks and usually no more than 8 weeks, depending on available moisture. Again, this doesnt mean that the P is lost or leached out of the soil, only that it will become harder for the plants to obtain.




Quote:
Originally Posted by muddstopper
At most the only problems you might encounter because of the high P is tieup of some of the micronutrients such as Zinc and Copper, which wasnít tested for on your soiltest report.

Once again, given the pH is this even worth considering? Now if the pH was around 7.00 or above, then I might be concerned.

Zinc and Copper are Cations, P is a very strong Anion, the presence of abundant free P will tieup other cations. In rowcrops, zinc and copper deficiencies are a symptom in high P level soils. This problem is usually less when adequate Ca and Mg saturation levels are present. In a turf situation, probably not as big a concern, just pointing out a possiblity.



Quote:
Originally Posted by muddstopper
I also disagree with someones statement about the tons of Al in your soil, there is no evidence posted that would suggest that you have high or low Al, this is just an assumption on someones part.

Wondered the same thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by muddstopper
While problems usually donít start until OM levels get over 7%, Soils with to high a OM content usually are not anymore fertile than a low OM content soil and can actually hold on to nutrients instead of letting them become available to the plants.

Whoa, back the truck up buddy.

First, the measure of a soils fertility is more than just CEC.
I agree

Second, please explain your thinking with specific examples of a limiting SOM% (with a mineral soil type) and a related drop in "fertility" and/or drop in plant available nutrients, and at what pH this might occur at.

As you said, soil fertility is more than CEC. All soils start out from rock and nutrient levels are derived from the parent material. You have rock,then gravel, sand, silt, clay and then humis. Since humis resist decay, it also has the strongest ability to hold onto nutrients. It also will have the greatest diversity of nutrients. A tomato plant planted in a clay soil will outperform a tomato plant planted in pure humis, while a tomatoe planted in a mixture of clay and humis will outperform either. Soils with high humis levels, (over 7%), are generally nomore productive than soils with low humis levels, (2%) when the same amount of imputs are applied. I doubt that there is any soild rule of thumb on exactly how much humis is to much because of the various soil types

............
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  #20  
Old 07-25-2009, 12:15 PM
ICT Bill ICT Bill is offline
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Nice exchange of cations, I mean ideas

You bring up an interesting point, we have a franchise near chicago that was doing some testing. They decided to test different types of compost for green up and density on some property they have next door

4 different kinds of compost, a couple were bagged and the other 2 local sources, were applied in 4 different thicknesses, 1/8 inch, 1/4 inch, etc

They were applied last fall (2008) and they were looking for results in the spring as the soil warmed. they waited and waited this spring, in late May they declared



No difference in any of the plots, you could not tell the difference from the turf right next to it that had nothing applied. They then declared, compost does not do a soil or turf good, it makes no difference

They called us and basically said, everything you told us is wrong.

I asked, what is the SOM on the soil test before applying. It was over 9% before adding organic matter

The soil already had enough available OM
Now if JD with his 0.7% OM had done the same thing there would have been quite a difference I would suspect

Interesting
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