oops.

[tlg]

Originally Posted by TPnTX

In the end it is semantics. I'd hardly call it an argument though as if to imply both sides disagreeing with one another.

The delineation of an invisible barrier is very simple. To the extent he opposed this depiction and clearly had been doing so for some time, I gave gave him the benefit of the doubt only to realize he is only struggling linguisticly.

You'll have to ask SmallAxe was his perspective is.

Perhaps discussion would have been a better word.

[tlg]

Originally Posted by Smallaxe

Seed will grow Above the barrier?!!??
2 many LCOs believe you can.
2 many LCOs can stir up the suface and disrupt the barrier and overseed with lawngrass.
In fact that may be one of the reasons that LCOs get such poor germination rates. They blame the seed or the HO, when they fail to realize their are chemical inhibitors in the soil.
Perhaps the barrier was a good analogy for Scotts but it was a problem for LCOs who got their understanding of - how things work - from a Scott's label.

Next step is: does pre-m ever become redundant? Is there a better time to pre-m for crabgrass other than - as soon as the ground thaws? Just some more linguistic exercises I'm sure.
But next spring b4 the grass even greens up there will be many "Professional LCOs" out there with their bags of "Weed 'n Feed", preserving the brown and thin spots, of their clients' lawns so that they can become muddy spots for the client to enjoy All Summer Long... Semantics?!!?? Little or no thought goes into these 4 step programs. "Scott's has it on their label, that's good enough for me."

Axe, I really do see your point here. Yes there are plenty of LCO's out there that don't know or don't care about how a pre emergent works. To lump everybody that uses them into a bunch of irresponsible dumb @#$% is ridiculous. I think that most of us will apply these chemicals responsibly and by the label. From some of your previous post on this site I know you are not a big fan of pre-emergents and opt for a more organic approach to lawn care. In a perfect world all lawns are thick, green watered and mowed properly to prevent crabgrass. In the real world most customers never even come close to maintaining their lawns with good cultural practices..... leaving us LCO's opting for products like a pre to give us some sort of edge.

[grassman177]

i am simply stating that in spots, not the whole yard, it is possible to establish seed after the fact. i have done it, but sure it does not always work 100 % . and by no means am i trying to mislead anyone, just stating my personal results.

the original poster was talking about small areas, not the whole lawn which in case you would have to look into deactivating the pre em to do. i have never tried this and have no advice there. this has only been my experience with dimension, no other pre em have i been successful in doing a spot seeding. thanks

[TPnTX]

Originally Posted by Smallaxe

Seed will grow Above the barrier?!!?? ...

honestly smallaxe (and im not-trying-to-argue) I understand the words you use but I can't attach two of your sentences together and make a paragraph.

Without studying your words like scripture, which I have no time for, I do not know what you just said and it has nothing to do with comprehension. You have a very incohesive style of writing that I find hard to follow.

[dishboy]

Originally Posted by tlg

leaving us LCO's opting for products like a pre to give us some sort of edge.

IMO as well as many others Pre-M's are counterproductive in growing a thick healthy stand of turf due to root pruning.

[TPnTX]

Around here in Bermuda if you don't use pre-em's your going to be fighting a loosing battle at the very least with crabgrass. Plain and simple. Bluegrass poa annua too.

In this business it's bid bid bid and bid some more. Bottom line. Adequate quality with the lowest overhead sometimes means you buy the best product.


Time Money or Quality. You only get to choose 2.

[tlg]

[QUOTE=dishboy;3306087]IMO as well as many others Pre-M's are counterproductive in growing a thick healthy stand of turf due to root pruning.[/QUOTE


You and the many others should also understand that a good sound lawn care program using pre and post emergents, applied properly will do what they were intended to do. If you have any legit study showing the detrimental effects of pre emergents and root pruning please share that info. I can show you lawns that have been treated for 25 years with pre's that look great with excellent root systems. Maybe it's only counterproductive because it ( pre's) don't fit your business model!

[Smallaxe]

tlg, I don't have a problem with pre-m. I didn't mean to give the impression that anyone who uses pre-m is in error.
What really bugs me is when LCO's use pre-m, here in the Northern Turf Zone, right after the ground thaws, for CG. I have some lawns that all I do is mow and cleanup. The HOs have TGCL do the weed n feed.

Now, Let's say I would like to improve the thickness of the turf by filling in the dead spots, that didn't survive the winter for whatever reason. What timing would work best? The timing of the overseeding and the timing of the pre-m?

That is all I am talking about. I had one guy tell me that pre-m'd over the top of my spring seeding that because I had cover it with compost it will grow through the barrier. Is this kind of thinking a problem of semantics? Am I a nutcase that is babbling incoherently? Or will covering with compost actually make a difference with the effectiveness of this barrier?

Pre-m does affect mature roots, but it is only temporary and the roots continue to grow once the pre-m is out of the rootzone. Pre-m is an anti-root hormone. That is all it is.

[TPnTX]

Originally Posted by Smallaxe

.

Now, Let's say I would like to improve the thickness of the turf by filling in the dead spots, that didn't survive the winter for whatever reason. What timing would work best? The timing of the overseeding and the timing of the pre-m?

all that would depend on the circumstances. Are we renovating a lawn that has major issue. what are those issues?

If you are attempting to improve a lawn by overseeding and there is a third party who's involvment may be to your detriment, one of you is going to have to manage the job. With no management what would you expect? Since you have the most to loose I would think you should be the one to manage the schedule. Its probably best to seed in the fall if possible anyway which would make things a lot more simple for you.

[dishboy]

Originally Posted by tlg

QUOTE


You and the many others should also understand that a good sound lawn care program using pre and post emergents, applied properly will do what they were intended to do. If you have any legit study showing the detrimental effects of pre emergents and root pruning please share that info. I can show you lawns that have been treated for 25 years with pre's that look great with excellent root systems. Maybe it's only counterproductive because it ( pre's) don't fit your business model!

Okay, show me a plug of turf showing the root mass on a 25 year Pre-M lawn and I'll show you one of a lawn four years without.