Register free!


Reply
 
Thread Tools   Display Modes
  #51  
Old 09-05-2010, 11:48 PM
dypsisdean dypsisdean is offline
LawnSite Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1idejim View Post
that's what i can't figure, if you can access the meter you can at least time the the meter and get a flow rate, if you can't see the meter face then the purveyor is reading it with a tube or electronically, in that case you have the controller set, ask for a reading, spend the night with friends and get the other reading before you use any water, this can be prearranged.

everything else has been layed out for you, without the current statistics, how will you know if the rpz will hurt the system or not?
It is one of these new electronic meters that is read remotely by the meter reader flashing some kind of laser at an indicator "chip" of sorts on the meter cover wired into a sealed metering valve of some kind. There are no readings I have access to.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 09-05-2010, 11:53 PM
Kiril Kiril is offline
LawnSite Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: District 9 CA
Posts: 18,318
Quote:
Originally Posted by dypsisdean View Post
I figured it wouldn't help any.
Really. So you think the manufacturers provide those graphs just for more pretty pictures in their spec sheet?

Seriously dude .... the solution is contained within your own posts. We should also ignore the fact that if your "guess" is correct, you have gone well beyond the safe design velocity for 1" PE pipe.

So here ..... let me help make it simple for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dypsisdean View Post
Readings at the sprinkler valves is about 120 psi - it varies
Now according to you, you have the education to figure the rest out. Geez.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 09-05-2010, 11:54 PM
1idejim's Avatar
1idejim 1idejim is offline
LawnSite Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 7,043
Quote:
Originally Posted by dypsisdean View Post
It is one of these new electronic meters that is read remotely by the meter reader flashing some kind of laser at an indicator "chip" of sorts on the meter cover wired into a sealed metering valve of some kind. There are no readings I have access to.
your purveyor will take readings at a designated time for you, 2 readings 24 hrs apart for the purpose of use, leak detection or disputes.

it may cost you a few bucks but it'll be worth it.

i'm sure that they have a meter anyway, let me check, i've not seen a meter without a clock dial of some sorts
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 09-06-2010, 12:37 AM
1idejim's Avatar
1idejim 1idejim is offline
LawnSite Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 7,043
ok paniolo,

lets try this again, pollardwater, all meters had dials of one sort or another.

the meter and curbstop should be shallow enough to flip the cover on the dial face and take a picture of the odometer/digital/led readout.

turn on zone 1 only, you have it timed for xxx minutes go back and take picture, repeat with zone 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and compare the photo documented readings. now you have a close idea of your sustained flow.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 09-06-2010, 01:13 AM
dypsisdean dypsisdean is offline
LawnSite Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiril View Post
you have gone well beyond the safe design velocity for 1" PE pipe.
That's why I say that equations on paper are not worth as much as real life in the field. Try telling someone that an application that has worked flawlessly for eight years is not within the "safe design velocity" parameters. Sounds like the aerospace designers who said their equations indicated a bumble bee was really unable to fly based on their calculations.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 09-06-2010, 01:25 AM
dypsisdean dypsisdean is offline
LawnSite Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1idejim View Post
ok paniolo,

lets try this again, pollardwater, all meters had dials of one sort or another.

the meter and curbstop should be shallow enough to flip the cover on the dial face and take a picture of the odometer/digital/led readout.

turn on zone 1 only, you have it timed for xxx minutes go back and take picture, repeat with zone 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and compare the photo documented readings. now you have a close idea of your sustained flow.
The problem is that all the graphs for the RPZs do not indicate much of a difference in pressure anywhere between 25 and 50 gpms. They all indicate a pressure loss of what everyone has already indicated here of 10-15 psi. So regardless of getting an exact flow stat, I already know what will happen with an RPZ - a decrease in pressure of 10-15 psi. And since no one has told me that one RPZ is better than another by more than a couple of psi, then I already have an answer to my first question. Now, the second question is how to boost the pressure back to what it was previous to the installation of the RPZ. And the only two options appear to be a larger meter or booster pump. A booster pump is unworkable due to electric rates here. So the question remains, "will an upgrade to a 1" meter, with the installation of an 1 1/4" RPZ give me more or less pressure than the present configuration? And since we don't know what the flow rate of the 1" meter would really be, it becomes a matter of opinion. Anyone care to give one?
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 09-06-2010, 01:42 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
LawnSite Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: District 9 CA
Posts: 18,318
Quote:
Originally Posted by dypsisdean View Post
That's why I say that equations on paper are not worth as much as real life in the field. Try telling someone that an application that has worked flawlessly for eight years is not within the "safe design velocity" parameters.
Well ... thing is, we aren't talking about equations, we are talking about manufacturers published specs on pressure loss at a given flow rate through a RPZ. You don't actually believe for one minute those plots are calculated .... do you?

You say no problems ... yet your compression fittings are blowing apart at 25 PSI.

FYI, I have installed thousands of compression fittings running at pressures approaching 50 PSI without any problems. So either you used the wrong fittings for the pipe, the fittings are cheap POS, or your excessive flow is blowing them apart.

And flawless .... only in your wildest dreams. I would be willing to bet your system efficiency is somewhere around 30%-40% at best.

I read back through this thread and to be perfectly honest if I didn't know any better I would have thought this thread was a joke. You have broken numerous basic irrigation design principles .... which is why you are faced with this problem now.

Maybe you should just buy one of every RPZA on the market and test them all until you find one that meets your expectation .... you know, since you find the published performance specs worthless.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 09-06-2010, 01:49 AM
Kiril Kiril is offline
LawnSite Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: District 9 CA
Posts: 18,318
Quote:
Originally Posted by dypsisdean View Post
So the question remains, "will an upgrade to a 1" meter, with the installation of an 1 1/4" RPZ give me more or less pressure than the present configuration? And since we don't know what the flow rate of the 1" meter would really be, it becomes a matter of opinion. Anyone care to give one?
And once again .... if you don't know what your flow requirements are, you will NEVER know if putting in a 1" meter will help at all ... well that is unless you just put one in and observing the result. For guy with a BS in physics, one might think you could grasp this simple fact.

Why don't you just do what you have already decided to do? It appears you seem more comfortable working with wild guesses anyhow.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 09-06-2010, 02:51 AM
dypsisdean dypsisdean is offline
LawnSite Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 38
I stated early on that you guys would laugh at the application, and that you would not believe how well the system has worked. So you would at least have to agree with me in that regard.

I guess you still haven't read the part of this thread stating that the tubing and fittings I am using are designed for drip irrigation and are only rated for 10-30 psi. Because of the terrain (rugged ups and downs, twists and turns, etc.), the wildlife (feral pigs), and large falling branches and the like, I choose to keep the working pressure low and not put excessive demands on the fittings. Since I reduced it from 30psi to 20psi, I haven't had one fitting pulled or popped loose. It happened on three separate occasions at 30psi over a 2 year period. And the fittings allowing for insertion of the tubing inside the fitting are the only ones that allow full flow of water. The barbed ones, or "twist tight" ones may be stronger but are very restrictive.

But again, the issue isn't whether the system is working or not. It is, and working as efficiently as any system you could come up with. Don't forget that the ID of the tubing I am using is markedly larger than sch 40 pvc, allowing for higher flow rates. Use your graphs and stats and tell me you can water 3 acres with a high overhead pattern on only 6 stations with a 3/4" meter. If you think it is operating at 30% efficiency, that means you should easily be able to it with 3 zones. That would be a good trick watering an acre with rainbirds on one zone from a 3/4" meter.

And if you think it's a just a wild guess to determine that a 1" meter will deliver more water to a 1 1/4" supply line than a 3/4" meter will (thereby increasing both flow rate and pressure), then I don't know how to respond.

Last edited by dypsisdean; 09-06-2010 at 03:01 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 09-06-2010, 03:13 AM
1idejim's Avatar
1idejim 1idejim is offline
LawnSite Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: State of Jefferson
Posts: 7,043
you asked for an opinion, i have one
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump






Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1998 - 2012, LawnSite.comô - Moose River Media
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:16 AM.

Page generated in 0.11310 seconds with 8 queries