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  #11  
Old 10-16-2010, 12:11 AM
360ci 360ci is offline
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I agree. The 3.5Eco is a good idea for those that want a truck but don't plan to work it regularly. There is no replacement for displacement and I'd gladly take the 5.0L V8, a lot more time (and Fords money) went into that engine design than the V6's. rwd base F150 the 3.7L V6 isn't a bad choice even when towing light loads, but it doesn't offer torque down low, where the V8's do. Don't forget either that the 3.5Eco engine should run on 91 octane. Ford says it's not necessary but even knock sensors have an operational lifespan! More for fuel, $2K (Canadian) for the engine option over the V8 alone, makes the 5.0L V8 my top pick. The 6.2 is a bit overkill, as anyone who needs to tow over 8-9K regularly should own a 3/4 ton truck.

Ford doesn't have EPA tests done, but they expect 24mpg highway for the V6 engines. However, the top gears are very tall, which lowers cruising rpm and if you have ANY weight in the truck and tap the gas, you'll be guaranteed a downshift, or two, to maintain speed on grades. The other benefit of a decently sized V8 is allowing added engine braking when you downshift the transmission to save a bit on service brakes and to keep the rotors from warping!

I can climb a 12% grade with my Dodge 5.9L V8 towing 3K on top of it all, while maintaining a steady 1800rpm at 55-58mph. If I had a V6, it would have downshifted or if it was a manual trans, I'd have to downshift to maintain speed.

In the end you get what you pay for and I agree that the Ecoboost V6 is a good, if not solid engine option, but I believe it's geared toward power junkies who don't work their truck but want to save on fuel while driving something that's 'big'.
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  #12  
Old 10-16-2010, 08:32 AM
PROPERTYLAWNSERVICELLC PROPERTYLAWNSERVICELLC is offline
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I think Mahindra trucks have it down over all the midsize trucks.
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  #13  
Old 10-16-2010, 08:40 AM
360ci 360ci is offline
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Originally Posted by PROPERTYLAWNSERVICELLC View Post
I think Mahindra trucks have it down over all the midsize trucks.
1deisel
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3 1.25 tonne rated
Mahindra is a simple work truck! Yes! However, to date it's taken them nearly 4 years to get their engine suited for this continent thanks to emission regs. If VM Motori made engines to our specs, we'd see a lot more diesels!
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  #14  
Old 10-16-2010, 11:06 PM
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doubleedge doubleedge is offline
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I believe your argument against the 3.5 and for the 5.0 is flawed:

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Originally Posted by 360ci View Post
I agree. The 3.5Eco is a good idea for those that want a truck but don't plan to work it regularly. Why? There is no replacement for displacement Yes there is: a turbo charger. and I'd gladly take the 5.0L V8, a lot more time (and Fords money) went into that engine design than the V6's. What source do you base that off of? rwd base F150 the 3.7L V6 isn't a bad choice even when towing light loads, That is the base engine; the Ecoboost is much more powerful. but it doesn't offer torque down low, where the V8's do. Don't forget either that the 3.5Eco engine should run on 91 octane. Ford says it's not necessary but even knock sensors have an operational lifespan! Again, where are your facts coming from? If Ford says that it will run on regular, it will run on regular. More for fuel, $2K (Canadian) It is only a $750 upgrade in the United States. for the engine option over the V8 alone, makes the 5.0L V8 my top pick. The 6.2 is a bit overkill, as anyone who needs to tow over 8-9K regularly should own a 3/4 ton truck.

Ford doesn't have EPA tests done, but they expect 24mpg highway for the V6 engines. However, the top gears are very tall, which lowers cruising rpm and if you have ANY weight in the truck and tap the gas, you'll be guaranteed a downshift, or two, to maintain speed on grades. All of the f150 engines use the same transmission. Plus, the ecoboost has more torque, a larger power band, and lower peak torque rpm. The other benefit of a decently sized V8 is allowing added engine braking when you downshift the transmission to save a bit on service brakes and to keep the rotors from warping!

I can climb a 12% grade with my Dodge 5.9L V8 towing 3K on top of it all, while maintaining a steady 1800rpm at 55-58mph. If I had a V6, it would have downshifted or if it was a manual trans, I'd have to downshift to maintain speed. Not if that v6 was the new Ecoboost v6.

In the end you get what you pay for and I agree that the Ecoboost V6 is a good, if not solid engine option, but I believe it's geared toward power junkies who don't work their truck but want to save on fuel while driving something that's 'big'.
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  #15  
Old 10-17-2010, 09:09 AM
360ci 360ci is offline
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Originally Posted by doubleedge View Post
I believe your argument against the 3.5 and for the 5.0 is flawed:
its not an argument, just MY opinion. Just as you are entitled toyour opinion. So, if you pulled 7-8k everyday, I don't think you'd be happy with the EB. There really is no replacement for displacement. A turbo or even a supercharger can mimic the power and torque of a larger engine; I could always get a 5.0 and put a blower on that but if you get the right engine for the 'job' then I won't need a displacement aid such as a blower. Don't forget that you can run regular fuel in the EB but from experience with a similar engine from another manufacturer I'd advise running premium, especially for blown applications. Unless of course you plan to hand the truck back before the warranty expires. If all I wanted was a power truck that had the potential of getting good mileage then the EB would be at the top of the list. However my choice remains the 5.0 as an everyday work truck and tow machine.
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  #16  
Old 10-17-2010, 09:17 PM
WH401 WH401 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 360ci View Post
its not an argument, just MY opinion. Just as you are entitled toyour opinion. So, if you pulled 7-8k everyday, I don't think you'd be happy with the EB. There really is no replacement for displacement. A turbo or even a supercharger can mimic the power and torque of a larger engine; I could always get a 5.0 and put a blower on that but if you get the right engine for the 'job' then I won't need a displacement aid such as a blower. Don't forget that you can run regular fuel in the EB but from experience with a similar engine from another manufacturer I'd advise running premium, especially for blown applications. Unless of course you plan to hand the truck back before the warranty expires. If all I wanted was a power truck that had the potential of getting good mileage then the EB would be at the top of the list. However my choice remains the 5.0 as an everyday work truck and tow machine.
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So then by your logic, the 7.3 Powerstroke was a whole lot more powerful of an engine then the 5.9 Cummins?, simply because it had larger displacement? Without a doubt the 7.3 PSD was the best diesel engine Ford ever put in a pickup, (well up until now, the 6.7 is gaining quick), but it's definitely no 5.9 in terms of reliability (it's close though), power, and performance. Your theory is nothing more than saying a gas engine is better than a diesel for towing, which we all know isn't true. The key to a diesel being the better tow-er is the torque and the overall stronger build of the engine. The EB V6 is nothing more than a diesel that runs on regular gasoline. It makes almost all of it's torque starting around 2k RPM, something most naturally aspirated gas engine can't achieve until at least 4k or higher. That's certainly going to make a difference in towing ability. Also, the fact that it has a turbo charger and a higher compression ratio is almost certainly going to contribute to it having a strong overall build to it than that of a regular gas engine. If Ford didn't think the EB was suited to tow the max rating that an F150 can, (which just so happens to be the same weight that an F150 with the 6.2 is rated for), they wouldn't have put it in there.

The statement "there is no replacement for displacement", is about as flawed as your theory of the EB. 40 - 50 years ago in the 60's and 70's that theory was correct, but today it's completely useless. There are many cars and trucks running around today with half or less the displacement of most vehicles from the muscle car years and those new vehicles are just as fast or faster.
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  #17  
Old 10-17-2010, 10:25 PM
360ci 360ci is offline
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No no no. You speak of cars... we can no longer tow a decent trailer with a car, so there's no need for such a large engine, like the old 505ci. It was overkill, even for back then, and it produced moderate power at best , however the strong point here is the torque to weight ratio.

Most newer boosted engines have little to no lag time, but if you get the chance, take say, a new Saab 9-5 2.3 or a Subaru WRX for a spin and if you're wafting along in top gear (Ford Autos are biased toward fuel economy - if it can upshift, it will!), and you put the hammer down what do you have? Nothing. Except extremely slow acceleration and lag because the engines are turning 1500-1700rpm, forcing the driver to downshift (manual) or pushing the pedal down to force a downshift to gain momentum (automatic). So your sacrifice to gain slightly better mileage is offset by having to consistently put more throttle down to get moving.

AGAIN, if I didn't tow anything, or very rarely and decided to buy an F150 just for the size of it, I'd go for the Ecoboost, and yes, it is a ripoff at $2K here in Canada, but it's a decent engineering feat and as my current truck uses 91 octane I can keep that trend going. Unless my dealer offers me some sort of lifetime powertrain warranty on paper for as long as I own the vehicle, I'll run 91 octane in it, as I keep my vehicles until repair costs outweigh the resale value.

Alas, if you were to tune a Ford 7.3 versus the Dodge 5.9L, and all gear and axle ratios were exactly the same right down to the tire size, the 7.3L can out torque the 5.9L based on sheer size, yes. However, I'd take the 5.9L I6 for it's inline design versus a diesel V8.

I never said that a gas engine is better for towing than a diesel. It depends what you want to tow. I said that if you plan to tow over 8K, a F150 isn't the best choice as an everyday tow rig. A F250 would be the optimum choice, whatever engine you choose is entirely up to you. With the current emissions crap on the Ford and GM diesels it made the price push slightly over $10K (Canadian) where as the Dodge can be had for under $10K with auto, and under $9K with manual (my choice!). It might burn more fuel when it does filter regenerations but that's a small price to pay in convenience and maintenance stops as Urea is not yet available outside the dealerships (in Canada, that I know of).

If you really want to know my choices for a 3/4 gas, I'd get the 6.0LV8, for 3/4 diesel I'll take the Dodge I6. For half ton I'd take the ford 5.0L unless GM decides to unleash it's twice shelved 4.5L diesel, I might wait and consider that as I need a vehicle that's not only a DD, but a work vehicle as well. latest 'gossip' mentioned that GM might put the new 4.5L into the 2500HD truck as well, as it puts out the '01 HP and TQ numbers of the old 6.6DMAX. So it should make for some very interesting comparison tests over the next year or two.
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  #18  
Old 10-21-2010, 11:07 PM
joed joed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 360ci View Post
No no no. You speak of cars... we can no longer tow a decent trailer with a car, so there's no need for such a large engine, like the old 505ci. It was overkill, even for back then, and it produced moderate power at best , however the strong point here is the torque to weight ratio.

Most newer boosted engines have little to no lag time, but if you get the chance, take say, a new Saab 9-5 2.3 or a Subaru WRX for a spin and if you're wafting along in top gear (Ford Autos are biased toward fuel economy - if it can upshift, it will!), and you put the hammer down what do you have? Nothing. Except extremely slow acceleration and lag because the engines are turning 1500-1700rpm, forcing the driver to downshift (manual) or pushing the pedal down to force a downshift to gain momentum (automatic). So your sacrifice to gain slightly better mileage is offset by having to consistently put more throttle down to get moving.

AGAIN, if I didn't tow anything, or very rarely and decided to buy an F150 just for the size of it, I'd go for the Ecoboost, and yes, it is a ripoff at $2K here in Canada, but it's a decent engineering feat and as my current truck uses 91 octane I can keep that trend going. Unless my dealer offers me some sort of lifetime powertrain warranty on paper for as long as I own the vehicle, I'll run 91 octane in it, as I keep my vehicles until repair costs outweigh the resale value.

Alas, if you were to tune a Ford 7.3 versus the Dodge 5.9L, and all gear and axle ratios were exactly the same right down to the tire size, the 7.3L can out torque the 5.9L based on sheer size, yes. However, I'd take the 5.9L I6 for it's inline design versus a diesel V8.

I never said that a gas engine is better for towing than a diesel. It depends what you want to tow. I said that if you plan to tow over 8K, a F150 isn't the best choice as an everyday tow rig. A F250 would be the optimum choice, whatever engine you choose is entirely up to you. With the current emissions crap on the Ford and GM diesels it made the price push slightly over $10K (Canadian) where as the Dodge can be had for under $10K with auto, and under $9K with manual (my choice!). It might burn more fuel when it does filter regenerations but that's a small price to pay in convenience and maintenance stops as Urea is not yet available outside the dealerships (in Canada, that I know of).

If you really want to know my choices for a 3/4 gas, I'd get the 6.0LV8, for 3/4 diesel I'll take the Dodge I6. For half ton I'd take the ford 5.0L unless GM decides to unleash it's twice shelved 4.5L diesel, I might wait and consider that as I need a vehicle that's not only a DD, but a work vehicle as well. latest 'gossip' mentioned that GM might put the new 4.5L into the 2500HD truck as well, as it puts out the '01 HP and TQ numbers of the old 6.6DMAX. So it should make for some very interesting comparison tests over the next year or two.
Wow, that would be really great if GM could stick in the 4.5L duramax diesel in a half ton. I understand they're coming out with a new design for their 1500 series in 2013 and it will include brand new engines that all use direct injection? How does the 5.3/6 speed combo do for gas consumption in a GM 1/2 ton and the 5.7L Hemi in the dodge 1500? The ecoboost sounds like a nice engine but twin turbochargers is what scares me. If those things ever go, it's going to be a lot of $ to fix. I personally only use my truck for my part-time lawn business. Only carries a few mowers. I actually think the 3.7L might work out well on that Ford for my uses.
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  #19  
Old 10-21-2010, 11:45 PM
360ci 360ci is offline
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Originally Posted by joed View Post
Wow, that would be really great if GM could stick in the 4.5L duramax diesel in a half ton. I understand they're coming out with a new design for their 1500 series in 2013 and it will include brand new engines that all use direct injection? How does the 5.3/6 speed combo do for gas consumption in a GM 1/2 ton and the 5.7L Hemi in the dodge 1500? The ecoboost sounds like a nice engine but twin turbochargers is what scares me. If those things ever go, it's going to be a lot of $ to fix. I personally only use my truck for my part-time lawn business. Only carries a few mowers. I actually think the 3.7L might work out well on that Ford for my uses.
If you want to run a reg cab, or ext cab 2wd, the base V6 will be more than adequate for that load.

I can't speak for mileage as I don't own either truck. I'd take the GM over the Dodge, only because the Dodge still offers the 5 speed auto versus GM's 6 speed unit. First gear is lower for more off the line torque when towing/hauling on a regular basis. For everyday driving I can imagine you'd see better mileage with the GM, mainly because it has an extra gear, is lighter (in nearly every configuration when compared to a similar Dodge variant).

Weight, gearing, tire size, engine size, altitude, driver input, all depend on if you get good, bad or decent mileage under any given driving condition. Hence the EPA states "your mileage will vary".

Another thing to consider is maintenance. Dodge has 30-40K between spark plug changes, where as GM has up to 100K as they use iridium plugs which last twice as long, and then some. The 4.7 and 5.7L Dodge engines also require 2 spark plugs per cylinder, so factor in a $200-250 tune up every 30K versus a $170 tune up every 80-90K for a similar GM truck.

There are a lot of factors to consider. As the GM should be the better mileage runner due to lighter weight, more gears, taller final drive (3.42 versus Dodge's 3.55) SHOULD net better mileage as well as be lighter in maintenance costs down the road.

Another key is buying price. If I could buy a similar Dodge truck for $3-5K less, I'd take it because the possible mileage deficit and slight increase in maintenance costs will still make it the better deal over the next 10-15 years depending on total miles driven. Then again, the GM will hold slightly better resale value, but not so much that it would make a huge difference.

I've had good luck with my Dodge Durango over the last decade and I'm hesitant to trade up for anything new as it still runs excellent. Which is saying a lot as I abuse it regularly! Ultimately it comes down to what you can afford, and your own personal preference on what YOU want to drive that is equally capable of doing the work you ask of it.
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  #20  
Old 10-22-2010, 10:49 PM
joed joed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 360ci View Post
If you want to run a reg cab, or ext cab 2wd, the base V6 will be more than adequate for that load.

I can't speak for mileage as I don't own either truck. I'd take the GM over the Dodge, only because the Dodge still offers the 5 speed auto versus GM's 6 speed unit. First gear is lower for more off the line torque when towing/hauling on a regular basis. For everyday driving I can imagine you'd see better mileage with the GM, mainly because it has an extra gear, is lighter (in nearly every configuration when compared to a similar Dodge variant).

Weight, gearing, tire size, engine size, altitude, driver input, all depend on if you get good, bad or decent mileage under any given driving condition. Hence the EPA states "your mileage will vary".

Another thing to consider is maintenance. Dodge has 30-40K between spark plug changes, where as GM has up to 100K as they use iridium plugs which last twice as long, and then some. The 4.7 and 5.7L Dodge engines also require 2 spark plugs per cylinder, so factor in a $200-250 tune up every 30K versus a $170 tune up every 80-90K for a similar GM truck.

There are a lot of factors to consider. As the GM should be the better mileage runner due to lighter weight, more gears, taller final drive (3.42 versus Dodge's 3.55) SHOULD net better mileage as well as be lighter in maintenance costs down the road.

Another key is buying price. If I could buy a similar Dodge truck for $3-5K less, I'd take it because the possible mileage deficit and slight increase in maintenance costs will still make it the better deal over the next 10-15 years depending on total miles driven. Then again, the GM will hold slightly better resale value, but not so much that it would make a huge difference.

I've had good luck with my Dodge Durango over the last decade and I'm hesitant to trade up for anything new as it still runs excellent. Which is saying a lot as I abuse it regularly! Ultimately it comes down to what you can afford, and your own personal preference on what YOU want to drive that is equally capable of doing the work you ask of it.
Thanks 360ci for the response. I appreciate your input. I need to get a new truck in the next little while. I currently own a 2000 GM 3/4 ton with a 6.0L gas engine. I'm giving this truck to my dad as his truck is getting too old and broken down. I'd love to get a duramax/allsion combo or a cummins/dodge combo but they're too expensive for my budget. I only do part-time lawn care so I figured getting a more fuel efficient 1/2 ton might be alright for me. The Ford F150 is an excellent truck but I don't like the height on it; too tall. However, this new ecoboost engine has me thinking about it. Yet, 2 turbochargers sounds like trouble down the road. The Dodge Ram 1500 is nice too but I don't know much about the truck nor the 5.7L Hemi engine and whether it's reliable and fuel efficient. The 5.3/6 speed combo on the GM is the most fuel efficient on paper, not sure about real life stuff but the GM truck is outdated. It won't be redesigned until 2013. It's too bad they shelved the plans to stick a 4.5L duramax in the 1/2 ton. So, I'm stuck as to which one to go with.
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