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  #31  
Old 01-19-2011, 09:43 PM
ICT Bill ICT Bill is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
You may be correct, if the average Joe HO and business manager, believed that TGCL isn't doing th best job possible. Their turf is green, they've acceped the cost as reasonable, and their weed situation is within the limits they would expect...

The old adage comes into play, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

What I'm talking about is changing the idea of healthy turf, that doesn't need the crutch of synthetic life support without sounding like a 'Snake Oil Salesman'...

Very few people in my neighborhood believe that conventional lawn care is dangerous. Most believe the danger comes from tree hugging goofballs.

I am trying to move beyond the 'beliefs' of the average Joe. I know that turf doesn't need all the foolish apps done by people who make a living at applying those foolish apps. I see the propaganda on all sides of the foolish app issue, as does the client.

In reality, anyones belief system, doesn't change the reality of how the turf will perform. You can believe that over fertilization is making your lawn better, than soil building, but that doesn't make it so. However their belief system will never allow a foot in the door.

If I can get my 'foot in the door' I can save them money, and make for a healthy lawn with safe healthy environment for people and pets to live... but I need to get the foot in the door with something less expensive than a compost app, if possible. I agree that compost with overseeding in the spring, will out perform any squirt and fert, pre-m silliness that currently exists. However, average Joe agrees with most LCOs that the root inhibitor w/high N, is paramount to a healthy weed free lawn.
You said it "save money with organic lawn care, less dead pets"

when I speak to people and say "endocrine system" or endocrine inhibitors" especially women, they know exactly what I am speaking about

most of the herbicides are endocrine disruptor's

they disrupt the endocrine system within a plant and kill it, no carry over to mammals is what the chemical companies say, six legged frogs and fish with male and female reproductive systems almost nationally may give you a clue
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  #32  
Old 01-19-2011, 11:01 PM
Tim Wilson Tim Wilson is offline
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Originally Posted by ICT Bill View Post
You said it "save money with organic lawn care, less dead pets"

when I speak to people and say "endocrine system" or endocrine inhibitors" especially women, they know exactly what I am speaking about

most of the herbicides are endocrine disruptor's

they disrupt the endocrine system within a plant and kill it, no carry over to mammals is what the chemical companies say, six legged frogs and fish with male and female reproductive systems almost nationally may give you a clue
Careful Bill, don't get branded a radical, like me
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  #33  
Old 01-20-2011, 09:06 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Originally Posted by ICT Bill View Post
You said it "save money with organic lawn care, less dead pets"

when I speak to people and say "endocrine system" or endocrine inhibitors" especially women, they know exactly what I am speaking about

most of the herbicides are endocrine disruptor's

they disrupt the endocrine system within a plant and kill it, no carry over to mammals is what the chemical companies say, six legged frogs and fish with male and female reproductive systems almost nationally may give you a clue
I had heard that insecticides work on the basis of nerve damage, but I hadn't heard about endocrine disruption from herbicides. Are you saying that its the herbicides getting into the frogs and creating the problem with them?
What do you think about the spraying of aluminum. barium, and strontium into the atmosphere, being the cause for the dead birds? Personally I think it had to be something else that was sprayed, but they claim it is just those 3 elements.
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  #34  
Old 01-20-2011, 05:24 PM
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Barefoot James Barefoot James is offline
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Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
I agree that compost with overseeding in the spring, will out perform any squirt and fert, pre-m silliness that currently exists. However, average Joe agrees with most LCOs that the root inhibitor w/high N, is paramount to a healthy weed free lawn.
Then basically you got nothing - EXCEPT and better product like a Nutrients Plus that at least the filler is organic matter instead of salts!
Use Nutrients Plus and you got your high N and for your spring app broadcast a couple pounds of seed per 1000. This will cost you about $3 per thousand (for the NP and seed) so at least you are in the ball park cost wise - I would say that would be your only available "price program" that is better. Throw the seed in as a free app to pick up new clients and make your existing ones see you do value their business.
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  #35  
Old 01-20-2011, 07:00 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Originally Posted by Barefoot James View Post
Then basically you got nothing - EXCEPT and better product like a Nutrients Plus that at least the filler is organic matter instead of salts!
Use Nutrients Plus and you got your high N and for your spring app broadcast a couple pounds of seed per 1000. This will cost you about $3 per thousand (for the NP and seed) so at least you are in the ball park cost wise - I would say that would be your only available "price program" that is better. Throw the seed in as a free app to pick up new clients and make your existing ones see you do value their business.
Are you saying that there is no other way to reduce the application of N? and no other way to improve the soil?

I agree that the few extra bucks it takes to add compost in the Spring, here in Wisco, will do more than the 5 apps. of N throughout the 6 month growing season(at best)... Is worth while; not everyone is on board with that... Kind of like Missouri in that respect... the "Show Me" state...

I like one response that came in early was' "Improve the soil"..... Are there cultural practices that would 'improve' the soil to the extent that the N that is applied, would work longer, not evaporate as quickly and not leach away as easily?

My point is: we need to conserve the N and make it available to the plants, b4 it is wasted. I'm confident that in the cool season areas, that we can postpone the spring applications, thereby eliminating the hot weather apps, without missing a step.

My ambition is too improve the soil structure, AND encouraging cultural habits that would eliminate a second app of N... With 2 apps out of the picture, surely 1 app of compost or your Nutirent Plus, would eliminate a 3rd app.

All I need is a, "foot in the door" and we are ready to go... The biggest albatross around my neck is the hyperbolic remarks about things that folks here in Wisco don't really believe...

To set the record straight, I am a naturalist that really doesn't appreciate NPK being dumped on frozen ground near lakes and sandy ground in which most of it leaches into the well water and never benefits the plants for which they were intended... Then to deal with the WI-DNR that talks as stupid as they possibly could in order to promote 'Control" rather than an effective solution. Its all politics so I'm trying to find a way around it...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #36  
Old 01-20-2011, 07:04 PM
ICT Bill ICT Bill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
I had heard that insecticides work on the basis of nerve damage, but I hadn't heard about endocrine disruption from herbicides. Are you saying that its the herbicides getting into the frogs and creating the problem with them?
What do you think about the spraying of aluminum. barium, and strontium into the atmosphere, being the cause for the dead birds? Personally I think it had to be something else that was sprayed, but they claim it is just those 3 elements.
Yes the basis of most herbicides these days is to disrupt the endrocrine system within the plant causing plant failure

atrazine is one of the biggest culprits, did you know cities along the Mississippi river that use the river for a water source have to close the inlets in the spring as the cloud of herbicides and fertilizers move south, the toxicity is way over human consumption levels
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  #37  
Old 01-20-2011, 09:02 PM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Originally Posted by ICT Bill View Post
Yes the basis of most herbicides these days is to disrupt the endrocrine system within the plant causing plant failure

atrazine is one of the biggest culprits, did you know cities along the Mississippi river that use the river for a water source have to close the inlets in the spring as the cloud of herbicides and fertilizers move south, the toxicity is way over human consumption levels
Yes, I do believe it... We have it in our groundwater to this day. It was outlawed in this area about 15 - 25 years ago. But we still have it in many localities...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
*
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  #38  
Old 01-20-2011, 09:06 PM
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Barefoot James Barefoot James is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smallaxe View Post
... but I need to get the foot in the door with something less expensive than a compost app, if possible.
Axe this is what you said not me - basically you got nothing like I said before - EXCEPT some sort of Nutrients Plus program to give them the excessive N you said they needed and the price you keep talking about. You can't do Price, N and Improve the Soil with out biology, minerials and humus - if you throw out the compost like you did you are left with Nutrients Plus - This at least gives you biology, minerials and some humus.

Good Luck!
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  #39  
Old 01-21-2011, 06:27 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Yes, I do believe it... We have it in our groundwater to this day. It was outlawed in this area about 15 - 25 years ago. But we still have it in many localities...
I realized after I went to bed that I was thinking about aldicarb, and Bill was talking about atrazine... Sorry for the error... I'll shut up now...
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Now that I know that clay's texture(platelets) has nothing to do with water infiltration, percolation, or drainage
,,, I wonder what does...
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  #40  
Old 01-21-2011, 06:51 AM
Smallaxe Smallaxe is offline
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Originally Posted by Barefoot James View Post
Axe this is what you said not me - basically you got nothing like I said before - EXCEPT some sort of Nutrients Plus program to give them the excessive N you said they needed and the price you keep talking about. You can't do Price, N and Improve the Soil with out biology, minerials and humus - if you throw out the compost like you did you are left with Nutrients Plus - This at least gives you biology, minerials and some humus.

Good Luck!
Well I do have the idea of proper irrigation and mulching in the clippings and using sugar/molasses to change the 'thatch' into food and build up the soil structure from that simple and inexpensive way.

I was hoping for other ideas, but mostly how to sell it to the client. Most people don't respond to the fear tactic of destroying Wisco with 5 apps of cides/fert, even though they should.

Perhaps just selling an app of compost, or Nutrients Plus, in the spring and letting people know that it replaces 2 apps of spring fert. [Which they shouldn't have anyways.] Most squirt and ferts apply b4 the turf breaks dormancy, the compost would go on after a couple of mowings, then cheap fert b4 the heat of summer.

I think you might be right, why even bother if compost is too expensive for someone who doesn't want to give up 2 cheap apps...
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,,, I wonder what does...
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